Area atheists come out of their closets - Coeur d'Alene Press: Local News

Area atheists come out of their closets

Billboards in Spokane feature testimonials, photos of local agnostics

Print
Font Size:
Default font size
Larger font size

Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:15 am

Sharon Mease's childhood was typical for a conservative Baptist family.

Her family attended church often, and most of her friends and acquaintances also were church members.

But when she was 14, a question became fixed in her mind: Was any of it real?

"There was no event in particular," the Spirit Lake woman said of what set off her spiritual doubts. "It just goes with how adolescents question everything. It was just a part of being a teenager, I suppose."

It didn't go away. In her 30s, Mease launched an intensive, "soul-searching journey" that would last 25 years. She read, watched science programs, did a lot of thinking.

Finally, she resolved that she couldn't believe in a supernatural being.

"More scientific evidence is coming out every day that explains all the things we don't understand," Mease said on Monday. "There's not one shred of scientific evidence that would show or prove there's a being that doesn't have to follow natural laws."

For the next several weeks, a whole lot of people are going to catch a glimpse of Mease's reasoning.

The 65-year-old is participating in a Freedom From Religion Foundation campaign, in which seven billboards in the Spokane area feature the photos and testimonials of local agnostics and atheists.

Mease is on one of those billboards, already positioned somewhere in the city across the state line. The ad includes her photo, a description of her as a retiree, atheist and Spirit Lake resident, and a quote conveying her opinion: "Truth is real; God is imaginary."

The aim is not to condescend but to enlighten, Mease said, to reveal there are ordinary, everyday folk in the area who are intentionally church-less and deserve equal treatment.

"'Atheist' has been a difficult term. It has a such a negative connotation," Mease said, adding that she hasn't personally experienced prejudice because of her lack of faith. "The point was to show that among local people and local citizens and neighbors of everyone around, there are non-theists, there are atheists, and we have a point of view and we're normal people."

All the campaign billboards feature North Idaho and Washington members of the Spokane chapter of the FFRF. The formats are the same, including non-believers' photos, descriptions and quotes they chose to depict their stance on religion.

The quotes include, "Freedom from religion lives," and "On bended knee? Not for me."

A billboard featuring former minister Ray Ideus of Nine Mile Falls states, "Now preaching reason, not religion."

Coeur d'Alene couple Harlan and Kay Hayes are also included in the campaign. Their billboard describes them as great grandparents and non-theists, their quote reading, "Evidence and science trump myth - reason wins."

The billboards will be up for a month.

Ministers from churches in Kootenai County could either not be reached for comment, or declined to comment without knowing more about the campaign.

FFRF, a national group that aims to raise awareness of non-theists and keep religion separate from government, has already done the billboard campaign in six other states, said co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor.

"Generally the response is very positive," Gaylor said, adding that the Spokane billboards are new and haven't garnered much reaction yet. "We usually hear from people who like them, who want more information, who agree."

The chief drive of the campaign is to reveal to citizens that there is a strong non-religious population in their midst, she said.

That will hopefully help alleviate the stigma attached to those who don't subscribe to traditional beliefs, Gaylor said.

"We've all experienced it. You're at a party or even at a public meeting, say 'I'm an atheist,' and there's a collective gasp," said Gaylor, whose own parents raised her without religion so she could choose for herself when she was older. "We are citizens and taxpayers, we are people who open the door for you at the grocery store. You don't know us, but we're nonbelievers. We're part of the fabric, and we're coming out of the closet."

She pointed to a 2008 American Religious Identification Survey that found 23 percent of the adult Idaho population is non-religious.

"Some of it is maybe beauty, going into the outdoors - who needs religion when you have all that natural beauty?" Gaylor said. "Maybe it's that frontier independence."

Hopefully other nonbelievers will join FFRF after spying the billboards, she said.

If the billboards also change some church goers' minds, Gaylor added, that's fine, too.

"Once your reason is turned on, it's pretty hard to turn it off," she said.

More about

More about

  • Discuss

Welcome to the discussion.

143 comments:

  • nebula posted at 11:34 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Ah, I think we are saying the same thing. Except I am using the word "objective" where you'd prefer to use "timeless". And that is essentially what I mean. So I think we agree there. :)

     
  • Humanist posted at 10:42 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "IF morality is relative and concepts of good and evil change, there is therefore no real objective good and evil. "

    That doesn't make sense. In the second half of the sentence you essentially negate the exact same concept in the first half. The only accurate statement you can make is that there is no timeless concept of good and evil but there is always present-time real objective good and evil. And, that, is relative morality.

    At this point, I think you have chased your tail into a logical corner. One where nothing is real.

     
  • nebula posted at 9:57 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Quote: "According to mans CURRENT rules based on relative morality, we can convict god (at least within most societies)."

    So in all instances so far there has been Top-Down enforcement of moral code. We have discussed individual societies like Nazi Germany desiring it one way. We have had to move up the ladder of collective groups to justly administrate an authoritative Golden Rule that overrules their society. We moved the power up to the United Nations.

    So since the UN is ABOVE smaller societies, they make the rules. Hitler doesn't get to play ruler the way he wants to now.

    But now all of a sudden, you are flipping the power to a Down-Top arrangement. Now man also dictates what is right or wrong to a transcendent being.

    Quote: "Ah. God is allowed to behave like a monster (relative to his own absolute rules) but he expects man to obey those same rules he has broken (but he hasn't technically broken them."

    No. I was pointing out the absurdities of arbitrary morality. However it is defined is therefore right or wrong. Your emotional response to it would be irrelevant.

    God does not adhere to a law in the same sense. The moral code specified is derived from the very nature of God. Never is God contradicting His own nature by terrorizing and slaughtering innocents.

    Quote: "Somehow you are reaching this conclusion: "since morality is relative and the concepts of good and evil can change, there are therefore no concepts of good and evil". I don't get that."

    No. I'm saying: IF morality is relative and concepts of good and evil change, there is therefore no real objective good and evil.

     
  • Humanist posted at 5:19 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "Your beliefs are that there is no God and no objective morality. In that reality it means objectively it is not wrong to murder. It is only been decided by society to LABEL it as "wrong" and apply consequences. And this could change at anytime due to its evolving nature.

    So if nothing is REALLY wrong outside of a societal agreement then there is nothing to object to at a level that transcends the societal pact. "

    I agree with that statement. That's the way it is. There have been many cases throughout history where murder for one reason or another has been deemed okay. Society has now deemed it "not okay". But, you're right, it could certainly shift the other way again. Is that likely? I doubt it.

    Quote: "This is why one needs the Bible to convict God of evil. "

    Only if you believe in god and absolute morality. According to mans CURRENT rules based on relative morality, we can convict god (at least within most societies). Just because those rules COULD change does not mean that no rules apply ever. Sure, perhaps a different and time place those rules would be different and he would not be convicted.

    Quote: "But these guidelines are given to man. They don't apply to God. "

    Ah. God is allowed to behave like a monster (relative to his own absolute rules) but he expects man to obey those same rules he has broken (but he hasn't technically broken them. To me, that is some seriously messed up thinking. But, come to think of it, perhaps that is why the Hitlers of the world have thought what they were doing was okay. After-all, they saw their father (god) do it first........

    Quote: "So then, what law am I to use to justly convict?"

    Mans law. Or, you can even use the absolute moral law that you believe god created. Same result either way.

    Somehow you are reaching this conclusion: "since morality is relative and the concepts of good and evil can change, there are therefore no concepts of good and evil". I don't get that.

     
  • nebula posted at 4:23 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    I know this just seems like we are going in circles. But to me there is a glaring hole that is continually being missed and it is at the very foundation/premise of the God is evil accusation.

    Your beliefs are that there is no God and no objective morality. In that reality it means objectively it is not wrong to murder. It is only been decided by society to LABEL it as "wrong" and apply consequences. And this could change at anytime due to its evolving nature.

    So if nothing is REALLY wrong outside of a societal agreement then there is nothing to object to at a level that transcends the societal pact.

    This is why one needs the Bible to convict God of evil. One will attempt to do so by pointing out the guidelines of proper living he gives to mankind and apply them to God. But these guidelines are given to man. They don't apply to God.

    This is where you might bring up the "do as I say, not as I do" bit. Well, if this is true, so what? This is the way this law is written. That's how this law is. Therefore, God cannot be convicted by it.

    So then, what law am I to use to justly convict? How am I even to object to the "do as I say, not as I do" that God is implementing?

    None.

    All we have is our emotions and man's societal version of morality. Something you have insisted is relative and meaningless outside the societal agreement.

    So the argument that God is evil still holds no water.

    You have got to be fed up with me for good now. LOL


     
  • Humanist posted at 1:00 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "This appears to be a contradiction. You say there isn't one then you refer to its very existence."

    This whole time I have been referring to distinct two things: my beliefs based on no god and a relative moral system and YOUR beliefs based on there being a god and an absolute moral system.

    I am saying that according to YOUR belief in absolute morality, god has been evil. AND, according to my belief in relative morality, god has been evil. Of course god (again, your god, not mine) is not going to convict himself of violating the rules that he established, but he repeatedly does violate them. It's like a parent saying "do as I say, not as I do".

    You may be interested in this: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bill_schultz/criminal-god.html

    BTW, I do not see any reference to morality in the Declaration of Independence. Only that we have the right to live, be free, and be happy. It is up to us as a society to determine what constitutes the morals behind achieving those rights.

     
  • nebula posted at 12:17 pm on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Quote: "You aren't going to let me escape this, are you?"

    Haha sorry not trying to keep you here. Its just where I have found myself in this point of thought.
    Btw, how do you make the italicized type? The formatting really helps separate the quoting.

    Quote Humanist: "I clarified above that the Golden Rule is NOT fixed."

    Right, I'm not saying it is considered fixed. (I personally believe it is.) I'm just saying I WANT it to globally be considered fixed recognizing a relative nature moral code could endanger the lives of any in the case it is modified.

    Our freedoms under the declaration of independence and constitution used verbiage invoking a transcendent source to protect us from men changing their minds. For example:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    So no argument regarding absolute/relative. Only recognizing the potential danger of holding to a relative moral code. Whether it is true or not.


    Regarding God's absolute moral law/standards:

    Quote Humanist: "There isn't one. It IS arbitrary."
    Quote Humanist: "according to his own absolute standards, many of his own actions have been immoral."

    This appears to be a contradiction. You say there isn't one then you refer to its very existence.

    If there is one that is what I was asking for. Particularly the part where God convicts himself of evil.

     
  • Humanist posted at 11:31 am on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    You aren't going to let me escape this, are you? :)

    Quote: "But I do have concern about an arbitrary/relative form of moral code and wanted to see it through that we can all rely on it remaining FIXED in regards to the Golden Rule"

    I clarified above that the Golden Rule is NOT fixed. It is also relative and determined by man. It is a philosophical ethic that man developed that has stood the test of time as a good basis for morality. It is NOT absolute.

    Quote: "It seems you cannot point me to a binding moral law that justly convicts God as evil"

    There isn't one. It IS arbitrary, based on what man has developed and deemed as evil. It is not binding or absolute, just like the Golden Rule as discussed above. You are wanting to say that none of gods actions can be reasonably judged as evil by mans relative morality if there is no absolute morality. You think that without absolute morality that there can be no definition of right and wrong. I disagree with that and think that man has established a set of relative morals that can and do define what societies think of as right and wrong. Here's the rub: YOU are saying that god has created absolute morality and according to his own absolute standards, many of his own actions have been immoral (even without the "free will" get out of jail free card). So, according to either his supposed absolute morality or according to our relative morality he has committed evil or has not prevented evil when he could have. Either way brings one to the same conclusion - god can be and has been evil.

     
  • nebula posted at 10:56 am on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    I know we have pretty much exhausted this topic. Wrapping it up:

    I really want to be enlightened to any flaw in my logic if I have one. Your posts have been very thorough and I like opposition to my current leanings. I don't want to believe something that isn't true and this I find is the best way to be shown something I may have not considered.

    I am obviously biased toward a mind behind this universe. As evidenced by my posts.

    The moral issue by itself is not evidence enough to prove anything either way. But I do have concern about an arbitrary/relative form of moral code and wanted to see it through that we can all rely on it remaining FIXED in regards to the Golden Rule. Because I agree, that is one very important rule for all of us. I would hope that the law makers in the UN also continue to feel the same even in an over-populated resource limited earth of tomorrow. A time when an over abundance of healthy/capable group mates, as well as unhealthy/incapable due to the lack of resource, is no longer so beneficial.

    Toward the end of the discussion it became about God being evil.

    As far as I can tell so far, rationally one cannot accuse God of being evil on an arbitrary/relative definition of morality made by man.

    It seems you cannot point me to a binding moral law that justly convicts God as evil. So there can be no rational objection to God or the concept of God on the basis of being evil. Only an emotional one.

    Thanks for going this far with me. It was a conversation I really enjoyed.

    Take care Humanist. :)

     
  • Humanist posted at 10:05 am on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    You're just chasing your own tail of logic at this point. I'm happy for you that you been able to reconcile and justify your beliefs using this logic, but that's not how logic works for me. I am walking away from this never-ending discussion at this point. Take care Nebula.

     
  • nebula posted at 9:44 am on Mon, Aug 6, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Human suffering, atrocities, killing, death, natural disasters, disease, famine was not the intention of God. It is the result of the free will that departs from the original intent of what was ought to be. Departing from the way things ought to be causes things to be the way they were not supposed to be. It's result is against the desire of God, but the only other way around it is to not create mankind as a free willed being but mere robotics. And for whatever reason, it appears free willed man is the more desirable route and is our reality.

    This is possibly because it doesn't end this way. There is reconciliation. Things will be made right once again. And in this model, the free willed man chooses God's perfect way. Not all men. But many. As per their free will.
    So in the end, God lives among both free willed man and the perfect creation originally intended.

    So how is that evil?

    The only way it can be accused of being evil is by some defined standard of evil that transcends some arbitrary agreement of a men/society. Before you said God's own standard defines this... somewhere. But where? Not in the Bible that I have ever seen.

     
  • cda271 posted at 6:46 am on Sun, Aug 5, 2012.

    cda271 Posts: 50

    wether you believe or not...no skin off my nose.

     
  • Humanist posted at 3:39 pm on Sat, Aug 4, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    So you are saying that all of human suffering, atrocities, killing, death, natural disasters, disease, famine, etc. can be justified by "Aw, whatever, it's just the free will that god gave us"?

    I don't see how you come to that conclusion without also reaching the conclusion that the god you believe in is evil.

     
  • Joseph Jr posted at 11:53 am on Sat, Aug 4, 2012.

    Joseph Jr Posts: 512

    If atheist people were taking the online pole individually, they'd also be commenting at the same rate.

    MAHLUN............You have the right to believe yourself and your conclusions to be superior.

    I don't care what you think or believe in.

     
  • Mahiun posted at 9:26 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Mahiun Posts: 5640

    These people have the audacity to publicly question the FAITH Christians have (that is who their target audence is)...
    Why is your faith above being questioned? Why is automatically and unquestioningly due this deference and unearned respect that you seem to expect and feel you deserve? If I tell you that I don't just believe in a magical with-granting teapot that orbits the sun exactly opposite the Earth so that we can never actually see it, will you grant me the same deference and respect, or tell everyone you can get to listen to you that I am a complete crackpot?

    What makes your faith so special as to be above being questioned?

    ...as if their imagined superior intelligence...
    You have a couple of probleme with this statement. First, there is no mention anywhere in either the article of the comments suggesting that atheists believe or imagine themselves to have superior intelligence (although, for the record, there are multiple studies showing that this is statistically true, as measured by IQ scores). So if you saw that anywhere on this thread, that was something you brought to the table, not something the article brought.

    Second, it's not a matter of "superior" intelligence. It's a matter of using one's intelligence to arrive at a different conclusion than you did. A different one, but just as valid. And you have the "audacity" to publicly question it??! (Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander....)

    They have faith there is no God....
    Not exactly. You'll never hear me say that "absolutely, God does not and could not exist." What you'll hear me say is, "Based on the evidence so far, the existence of 'God' seem so unlikely that I feel comfortable living my life as if 'God' does not exist. But it's not utterly impossible...." In contrast, I have yet to hear any fundamentalist Christian EVER even come close to admitting, "Yes, it's possible that 'God' does not exist...."

    And not one of these indigent Christians on these threads has yet answered my very simple and direct question: Why you feel so personally threatened and offended by the mere existence of atheists?

     
  • tdonager posted at 6:44 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    tdonager Posts: 1

    It sounds as though many of the atheists commenting have more bad experiences/stories with the "people" and not God.
    People will ALWAYS fail you; this is why you have more bad experiences/stories about how they let you down rather than the one true God. I personally as a Christian apologize for the people who have shown you a poor image of God the Father. Most of the examples all of you gave are very poor ways of showing you the one true God. However He is real and true. If you choose not to beleive Him that is your choice however it is that choice that separates you from His love and favor not His anger. If you walk away from Him how will he protect you..?
    I really appreciate all of your honesty, most people can't be this honest. :)

     
  • nebula posted at 6:07 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    So you are saying that God permitting man free will is evil by Gods own standard?

    I don't see how you come to that conclusion.


     
  • Humanist posted at 5:40 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    I am objecting to the CONCEPT, as introduced by man to other men, of this benevolent god that provides absolute morality because, according to what man has said that god has told them, he is all loving, omniscient, etc. So, if this god exists and has the ability to stop the human suffering, by HIS OWN definition he is evil. In this case, we are only HOLDING THE POSSIBLE BEING ACCOUNTABLE TO HIS OWN CONVENTIONS. It's a contradiction of the greatest possible order.

    As I said before, you are going in circles. You have pretty much reached a place where "we are all and we are none". Welcome to the Matrix where even our very existence may only be a figment of our imaginations. :) Have a good weekend.

     
  • nebula posted at 5:01 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Quote:
    "Sorry, I just can't believe in a god that is that bipolar and evil. It flat out doesn't make sense."

    Hold on here, you are objecting to God because he is evil?

    I thought evil was just a mere convention made by men?

    And that something isn't truly objectively wrong until mankind has a meeting and decides it so.

    And now we are holding a possible being that transcends our material universe accountable to our conventions?

     
  • nebula posted at 4:37 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Did you see my post just above your last? I posted two in which the second responds to your questions. Maybe my second post didn't show yet when you checked back.


    But to elaborate a little more on the absolute standard question:

    Why give your children absolute standards or rules? To protect them.
    Do they obey them perfectly just because you defined them? No.
    And when they disobey, sometimes they face the negative consequences you were trying to protect them from.

    You said:
    "If there was absolute morality, none of those examples that you provided would exist."

    I may be misunderstanding you here, but this seems to imply that if there was an absolute standard then humanity would cease to display varying morality. But that isn't necessarily so.

    It could also be that there is an absolute standard and humans choose whether to abide by it or not.
    This would result in the varying morality we witness.

    In the same way with the laws of the United States. There are absolute laws, and many who break them.


     
  • Humanist posted at 4:37 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Sorry, missed your other response.

    I personally find the entire concept of "free will" in the context of religions a rather large intellectual cop out. Or more accurately, a man-made necessity in religion to answer the types of questions that I asked. Humans discovered that evil abounds since we are only creatures of relative morality so had to fill that little hole in the concepts of religions.

    Quote: "Why have a relative moral standard definition if humans disregard it?"

    Because if we didn't regard it then society does have a potential for all out anarchy. We, as societies, must have rules in place to maintain the order. Our natural tendency is to stay alive and as social creatures keep each other alive. It does us no benefit to harm the next guy who might be providing our next group meal.

    I understand that in the end there are logical fallacies with both, but there are far more when trying to reconcile the human suffering that has occurred while a god just observes who could do something versus the problems with relative morality.

    "But there are two Gods. The God of the Sanctity of Human Life and the God of the Free Will Defense. They disagree strongly. The God of the Sanctity of Human Life is against abortion and euthanasia, and also against the atrocities of Hitler. The other God, The God of the Free Will Defense, allows the atrocities of Hitler. " - http://korthof.blogspot.com/2010/11/god-hitler-and-free-will-defense.html

    Sorry, I just can't believe in a god that is that bipolar and evil. It flat out doesn't make sense.

     
  • Humanist posted at 3:29 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Well, I would agree with everything you wrote above with these exceptions and further thoughts.

    Quote: "So, in the society of Nazi Germany, the Golden Rule didn't apply to Jews. "

    You're right, but ultimately the rest of the worlds societies came together and applied the Golden Rule and overcame the Nazis violation of the worlds societies collective morality. Morality and laws are obviously cultural and regional in nature. Some cultures encourage the stoning of adulterers. Obviously we don't. But

    You seem to be going around and around in circles with yourself here. Ultimately, you are right, you have figured out that morality are "floating" guidelines and you have provided many examples of that. If there was absolute morality, none of those examples that you provided would exist. You can witness these differences in morality from culture to culture throughout the world today but the Golden Rule, which is really just a principle rather than an absolute, tends to be common from culture to culture.

    Regarding a global society, that is exactly the kind of thing that United Nations is for - in part to provide a common international law. To find a set of common morals and ethics that everyone can compromise on.

    I've indulged you, how about you indulge me and answer my questions from my post at 12:51?

     
  • nebula posted at 3:04 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Quote: "You might need to ask yourself, if god is kind, loving, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, why didn't he put an end to the human suffering caused by Hitler? Because he had to allow Hitler to exercise his "free will"? Why even have an absolute moral standard definition if evil humans disregard it?"

    Yes, free will.

    Why have a relative moral standard definition if humans disregard it?

     
  • nebula posted at 3:01 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    If right and wrong is merely a convention created by a society.. that means nothing before the agreement was established can be considered wrong. NOTHING. Not murder, not rape, not lying, not running a red light, not liking the color pink. Correct?

    If there is no agreement in order that specifies which side of the road you drive on, then there is no infraction of that agreement if you drive on the side that could eventually be established as oncoming traffic only.

    In our society we drive on the right side of the road, in Europe the left. Different societies, different rules. Wrong to drive on the right side of the road in one society, but not in the other. Do we charge Europe of a crime for driving on the left on their own country because that's our convention?

    And since the convention can change/evolve, that gives any society freedom to change it! So even if Jews were originally protected by the Golden Rule, Nazi Germany changed it to remove their protection from the Gold Rule because they were not considered equal to the superior race.

    So, in the society of Nazi Germany, the Golden Rule didn't apply to Jews.

    The only way Hitler can be considered a violator of anything is if there is a standard/law that is above Nazi Germany and ALL other societies as well.

    So that leaves a global society. But this global society must also come up with an AGREEMENT.
    And since nothing is really objectively wrong outside of a societal agreement, that means whatever is agreed upon makes moral law.

    If they so happen to determine white people are a problem, by whatever reasoning come up with, since there really is no real objective morality to guide these decisions.... Then it is not wrong to kill white people. In fact, it is right to do so.

    What I don't understand is how this ever changing, evolving, convention based form of morality somehow has a fixed non-changing Golden Rule.

     
  • Humanist posted at 12:52 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Sorry, I missed your post. I've responded now.

     
  • Humanist posted at 12:51 pm on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "- Right and wrong is merely a convention created by a society.
    - It is established ultimately by the common good.
    - Morality is relative. There is NO absolute/fixed foundation.
    - It changes/evolves."

    Yes to all of the above.

    You are forgetting one morality rule: the Golden Rule. Hitler violated that. Sure, to Hitler what he was doing was right but as social creatures with a shared subjective morality, mankind recognized that what he was doing was wrong and collectively put an end to it.

    You might need to ask yourself, if god is kind, loving, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, why didn't he put an end to the human suffering caused by Hitler? Because he had to allow Hitler to exercise his "free will"? Why even have an absolute moral standard definition if evil humans disregard it?

     
  • nebula posted at 11:32 am on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Humanist, I guess you got bored by me. I was hoping to get a reply from you on our thread below:

    http://www.cdapress.com/news/local_news/article_05778f1d-287a-55a4-91d1-a33bcab9e1ae.html#comment-90117548-dbf5-11e1-a46f-101f742c2de4

    I found our discussion enjoyable and seemed it was actually going somewhere. As opposed to a lot of the people talking past each other found in many of the other comments on this site.

     
  • Humanist posted at 8:56 am on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "I suggest the parents move to a nation where "and liberty and freedom for all.", is not a part of societies beliefs. Say, Iran, Kuwait. Go there and put up your billboards, talk your talk, instead of here where Christians will protect your rights. "

    Why would we do that? This is a Country where we (mostly) have "liberty and freedom for all". Thank you Christians (and other religions) for protecting our rights. You can also thank the Atheists for protecting YOUR rights.

    Why are you so threatened by the mere fact that someone doesn't believe in god, JosephJr? Ask yourself that question reasonably and objectively.

     
  • Joseph Jr posted at 8:21 am on Fri, Aug 3, 2012.

    Joseph Jr Posts: 512

    I think these people should explain exactly how they believe mankind evolved.

    Whatever their explanation is, it would be absolutely void of reason. Therefore, their own beliefs, or lack of prove that they have FAITH in what they believe.

    These people have the audacity to publicly question the FAITH Christians have (that is who their target audence is), as if their imagined superior intelligence has allowed them to have answers they do not have. They have no foundation for their beliefs, just theories, and multitudes of those. They have faith there is no God, and passively bash the faith of Christians.

    This they will TEACH their children.

    No God, no accountability...

    I have no doubt, this group of "Free Thinkers," will soon be charging their followers, so they can guide and teach them their own unique theories. Imagine how interesting it will be when another group of "Free Thinkers" comes up with a different theory. The "Big Bang" "Free Thinkers" will then be at war with one another, just like the Muslims and Christians.

    I sugget the parents move to a nation where "and liberty and freedom for all.", is not a part of societies beliefs. Say, Iran, Kuwait. Go there and put up your billboards, talk your talk, instead of here where Christians will protect your rights.

    Now that would be brave instead of cowardly.

    I pray someday, a wonderful Christian pastor will be allowed into your hearts and minds.

     
  • Verimius posted at 2:38 pm on Thu, Aug 2, 2012.

    Verimius Posts: 1

    Just a clarification: Muslims DO give charity. Charity, called "zakat", is one of the five pillars of Islam, one of the fundamental precepts.

    Also, I'd like to mention that, as an atheist, I do donate to charities, but secular ones like the Red Cross. You just can't tell the money is coming from an unbeliever because it doesn't have a label on it.

     
  • Joseph Jr posted at 7:39 am on Thu, Aug 2, 2012.

    Joseph Jr Posts: 512

    Isn't this charming?

    It is very SAFE to claim your atheist status in a community or area filled with Christians. Your belief is advertised commercially, as you wish to gain followers. Your followers will be lost people who you feel you can lead no where.

    How about you move to Dearborn, Michigan? Not such a safe environment for your agenda?

    You're sheep in wolves clothing. You wish to gain something, and that something is followers...That will give you the power you desire.

     
  • Peter posted at 9:06 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Peter Posts: 689

    Why must one feel the need to have validation from society to justify their religious views? If there is anyone guilty of ramming their views down societies throat it is all the religions of the sons and daughters of Abraham. Besides, if your faith is strong then it shouldn't matter what other people believe or do on their own time right? Before all the x-tians fundamentalist gets their panties in a bind over this they should remember that they are the ones waking people up in the morning on weekends with their panphlets telling us were gonna burn if we don't convert, telling us that they are somehow discrminated on the same level as black Americans (the most laughable of all complaints from them I have to say), telling there is some fake war on xmas, going to poor countries and scaring the local natives into their faith, and telling us some revisionist history b.s. about the x-tian foundation of our Constitution and how for some reason that we are some x-tian state like Pakistan is to a muslim state.

    Here is a novel idea: We live in a country where we are free to choose what our faith is or not and that the government can neither enforce nor prevent people from exercising their faith or lack of one. Just believe in what you believe in and let it be. Is that really that hard?

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:55 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    GM Old and New Testament, Buddy.....Old and New Testament.

    One was a contract of Law and one was a contract of Grace. One was a contract of rules and one was a ccontract of faith.

    Gotta go, Gents. Love ya.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:53 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    "That is indeed very noble, and very laudable. But it's not dependent on believing in any kind of religion, let alone unique to Christianity."

    ---In my case, it is. You have no idea how much pain it causes. You have no idea how often I must speak to my oldest child about what is going on and why. If it were not for what I am told and what I have learned abotu love through Jesus Christ, I would have left almost a year ago. Would you stay with your partner if he was constantly telling you all you do is wrong? Would you stay with him if time and time and time again you are told that all you do is not good enough? Then a day later he is sooooo in love with you you can't believe it's the same person? Would you stay if you constantly had to wonder "what is he going to explode on me about?" It's hard. I struggle every day and every day I pray and I pray and I ask God to soften my heart and somehow He makes things happen. Man the other day......lol, my wife was on a rampage, RAMMMMPAGE over something stupid that I had no control over...NONE....I prayed, "God, please help me on this. It's out of my hands and I have no control over it. I need you, Father." The next day I got a phone call and that was that.....problem was solved in a one minute conversation.....done. Anyway, do I want praise? No not at all. I'm telling you the truth, God has done things to me and for me through Jesus Christ.

    "You don't have a monopoly on selfless thoughts or deeds."---Nor did I say I did.

    As Jesus Christ said even the tax payer loves those who love him. What good is that? You stayed with your lover as most people would. But would you stay with the homophobe who told you again and again you would burn in he11? Would you stay and comfort the bully that tormented you?

    And again, it is our deeds that get us to Heaven. It is the mere grace of God throuhg the gift of Jesus Christ.

    As far as the Big Bang scientists have said that the likely hood that the Big Bang created all the earth how it is is the equivalent to a tornado going through a junk yard and leaving in it's place a fully functional 7/47 complete with staff and pilot made from what was previously junk.

    Something as complicated and as beautiful and as amazing as this planet didn't just happen. I cannot look into the eyes of my children and see them draw and create and laugh and for one moment doubt there is a God.


    Love you, Mahuin.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 2:28 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "Most people look to God as the origin of their rights"

    Most people are also intellectually lazy.

    What you call rights are basically rules and behaviors necessary for survival that have been refined as we have evolved as a species. Example: Bible people have stopped poking out eyes and pulling out teeth even though God commanded them exactly how injure in is name.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:01 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    And yes, I know people have misused Christianity in teh past. It has absolutely nothing to do with power or collective salvation. It has to do with the individual.....which also contradicts Communism....I just made another point!

    Communism is about the group as where Christianity is about the individual. I can go to heaven without you or making you a disciple. I can have rights without you. In Communism WE ALLLLLL are nothing more than cogs in the machine, Comrade Citizen.

    do you think Muslims would let a group of Communists come and take their land? Ha Ha Ha Ha no way, dude. do you think a Muslim is going to accept a Communist coming to his house saying "give me your property, your nieghbor needs it." NO WAY

    That is why Communism negates religion. One of Lenin's first actions was to attack the churches.
    Love ya.

     
  • Mahiun posted at 1:56 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Mahiun Posts: 5640

    I find it fascinating, but very very telling, that there seems to be a tacit baseline assumption on this thread that if one as not atheist, one is Christian --- as though it was simply an A | B choice, with no other alternatives.

    But to the matter at hand....

    JITL
    When you become a true Christian, you die to yourself and life becomes about others. You give up your desires and your wants in order to satisfy the needs of others. Does that sound fun? Some times it's not, especially when you are dealing with someone who is unusually.......OCD or Bi Polar or has Borderline Personallity Disorder....not fun....but you have to love them, stick by them, and deal with it. I know it doesn't make sense to you....my wife has bi polar II and it makes life very, very, very, very difficult, un-fun, and at times very, very depressing. But Jesus told us to stay, and love, and keep loving. So I am here.

    That is indeed very noble, and very laudable. But it's not dependent on believing in any kind of religion, let alone unique to Christianity.

    Charity and loving-kindness are not the exclusive property of Christians or Christianity. When my first partner was dying of cancer, I stayed by his side 24/7. I bathed him, I fed him, I walked him to the toilet and even wiped his *ss for him when he was too weak to do it for himself. I held him in my arms as he died. And I did it all without a single moment of belief in, or "help from", Christ or Christianity. You don't have a monopoly on selfless thoughts or deeds.

    Humanist
    Lastly, regarding the Big Bang. Scientists know that was the genesis of the universe.
    Well, not exactly.... The Big Bang was the beginning of the universe in its present form, because matter and mass and time and space did not exist "until" (in quotes because it's difficult to speak of a "time" when there was no time) they were created as a result of the Big Bang.

    But quantum physics tells us that there has always been a "something",, that the universe has always existed. (Again a difficult concept to speak of something "outside of" time; we tend to want to think of "always" and "forever" in temporal terms, but they don't apply here.) And at the quantum level, things constantly can and do pop into and out of existence, they can and do exist in two or more places at once, they can and do occupy the same time and space as something else. Everything we think we know about physics gets thrown out or stood on its head, at the quantum level. So yes, in a literal sense, it is entirely possible to get "something from nothing", with no causation and no guiding intent or intelligence bringing it into being or destroying it. By all indications, existence really is completely random.

    Central points:
    1. The Big Bang did not create the universe. It created the present form of the universe.
    2. The universe -- or more accurately, this universe, part of an infini-verse --- has always existed, and appears not to have ever been created.
    3. Things CAN AND DO simply, spontaneously, randomly spring into existence and drop out of existence, at the quantum level.
    4. So far, "God" or a guiding intelligence has not been necessary in order to explain any of this.
    5. It's not that "God" could not exist, but that "God" need not exist in order to explain the universe (so far, as I said before) and that the "God" hypothesis creates all kinds of logical inconsistencies that are never resolved, making the existence of "God" highly unlikely. Not impossible, just very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very unlikely.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 1:55 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    "The implied merge makes no sense. Communism is an economic perspective"

    Tell that to Karl Marx, Vlad Lenin, and Joe Stalin. We're not making this up. With Communism comes Atheism but not vice versa per se.

    Most people look to God as the origin of their rights. I don't know where you or Humanist think you got them, but we'll go with ......I don't know the Universe.

    If you believe someone beside the group in power hands out rights, then we have a problem. If you are going to go along with what I want you too, I need you to believe that I GIVE YOU YOUR RIGHTS not God, not the universe, not Gaia. How do I do that?

    I promise you we're not making this up. If you study Communism you will see it from the beginning, GM.

    Just because you don't believe in God doesn't make you an athiest, but if you are a Communist you are an atheist.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 1:15 pm on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "He said the reasoning behind athiesm in Communism is so that people don't look to God for rights"

    The implied merge makes no sense. Communism is an economic perspective. Atheism deals directly with theology or "atheology"

    I don't doubt that man might misuse either philosophy to control man. Heck, man has been using the Christian faith to control man for centuries.

    I'm not sure why, but the picture of soldiers praying to God before going to battle comes to mind. Or the boxer down on one knee thanking God for the punch that just sent his opponent to the hospital. You'll never see an Atheist do that.

     
  • Humanist posted at 11:19 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    By the way, I saw a little of Nicotinegun making an appearance towards the end there........ :)

     
  • Humanist posted at 11:17 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "He still gave you the same rights."

    That is your personal belief. But as long as we all believe that we all have the same individual rights regardless of whether we believe in a "Creator" or not, then we're all good.

    You shouldn't believe everything that you watch or read. Regarding Expelled, read Richard Dawkins response to his comments which were greatly taken out of context for the film. http://richarddawkins.net/articles/2394-lying-for-jesus

     
  • nebula posted at 10:55 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    If you reply to your post at "8:47 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012" it will keep the thread going here.
    It appears the system doesn't allow more than 3 reply indentations. But we can continue within the 3rd.

     
  • 5inPfs posted at 10:51 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    5inPfs Posts: 771

    The judging goes both ways...as evidenced by your comment.

     
  • 5inPfs posted at 10:49 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    5inPfs Posts: 771

    Heh heh. I'm with you. I know more A/A than I know the religions of other acquaintances/friends--they've never been shy about confessing their disbelief/burning indifference to me. I'm not sure why this is a BIG thing or why it is being compared to "coming out"?

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 10:43 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Whether you believe in God or not, yes, He still gave you the same rights. You have the choice and that is what He wanted.

    Humanist have you ever seen the movie Expelled? The world's most renowned atheist Richard Dawkins on film admitted that someone had to have placed the atom that started the Big Bang. He said "someone had to have put it there." Then he stared at the host with a look like "Oh darn it. I just blew it didn't I?"

    And I don't anyone is saying if you are athiest you are a Communist. If you are a Communist, you are an atheist though. That's what makes certain political figures such enigmas. He attends church. He was raised in a church, but he imiplments Communist programs, talks like a Communist, and hangs out with Communists. Some researches and historians have stated that Communists actually infiltrated the church. Anyhoo...

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 10:37 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Well you would know who I was if you were him. We were best friends.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 10:35 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Bradsher he didn't say that's all it took was to be an atheist. C.E. Cupp is an athiest too, but that doesn't make her a Communist. That's not what Brent said.

    He said the reasoning behind athiesm in Communism is so that people don't look to God for rights, but to those in power. That doesn't make you a Communist, no, but that is why atheism is essential to Communism.

    And as far as your statement "I'm sure it could be comforting referring to ancient stories to explain the unexplainable but some folks prefer an objective reality over what other people told them," It isn't always comforting, Dude. As God told Moses He will do what He will do according to His plan. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean bad things can't happen to me. That isn't a comfort. In fact, we are told we will be tried even harder in some cases.

    Do you think Job was comforted when he was told, "Oh yeah by the way all your animals are dead, your children are dead, and you've lost everything. Enjoy the boils."

    Do you think it's awesome for me dealing with things in my life strictly because it's the Christian thing to do? It's not comforting knowing I have to do something I don't want to but I do it because it's what God commands.

    It's not all BBQs and Sunday school, Friend. My life has actually become more difficult, BUT I am more at peace.

    When you become a true Christian, you die to yourself and life becomes about others. You give up your desires and your wants in order to satisfy the needs of others. Does that sound fun? Some times it's not, especially when you are dealing with someone who is unusually.......OCD or Bi Polar or has Borderline Personallity Disorder....not fun....but you have to love them, stick by them, and deal with it. I know it doesn't make sense to you....my wife has bi polar II and it makes life very, very, very, very difficult, un-fun, and at times very, very depressing. But Jesus told us to stay, and love, and keep loving. So I am here.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 10:12 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "This is why Atheism is a fundamental requirement of Communism"


    As Mahiun reminded us below... Ayn Rand was an atheist.

    And the question isn't so much about faith as it is about knowing or not knowing. I'm sure it could be comforting referring to ancient stories to explain the unexplainable but some folks prefer an objective reality over what other people told them.

    That does not a communist make.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 9:54 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "... a man I used to be a friend with told me one day that he was posting as the Golden Mean"

    I doubt that we know each other.

     
  • nebula posted at 9:25 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Agreed, all out anarchy would be bad.

    So to be clear, are you saying the following?

    - Right and wrong is merely a convention created by a society.
    - It is established ultimately by the common good.
    - Morality is relative. There is NO absolute/fixed foundation.
    - It changes/evolves.

    So in the society of Nazi Germany it was determined that Jews were sub-quality human beings.
    That it was right to remove these ailments of man in order to make a more pure and stronger mankind for tomorrow. Fits right in with the evolutionary model "Survival of the fittest".
    This would ultimately benefit the masses/common good.
    (All according to Hitler and Nazi Germany)

    So based on the above definition, Hitler did nothing wrong. In fact, it was the right thing to do if the common good is the primary criteria for morality.

    What right did any other society have imposing it's mere preferences on Nazi Germany?

     
  • Humanist posted at 9:12 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Let's not conflate Atheism and communism. They simply are not the same thing. In this Country, Atheists would never support the idea of Atheism being promoted by the government. Just as we do not support the promotion of or entanglement of Christianity by government. (or any other religion). We are a Nation comprised of many faiths and non-faiths and as such our government needs to operate in a religiously neutral manner while still allowing individuals to believe and practice whatever religion or non-religion they want while not forcing others to do the same. Our Fore Fathers were very clear on ensuring that our government is secular in nature.

    As to the endowment of individual rights by "the Creator", it is very interesting that our Fore Fathers used that specific term instead of using the Christian term "God". And above that in the Declaration of Independence they used "the law of nature and the law of nature's God.". Many of the writers of the document were Deists so wanted to ensure that it was not specifically Christian and was as religiously neutral as possible. While Atheists do not necessarily believe in a "Creator" (or the creators creator, etc), yes, you are correct, we believe that our rights are endowed by other people - in this case our Fore Fathers who established the relative laws and structure of this Country that we all share together.

    And even if I don't believe in the Creator, I am still entitled to the same rights you are if you do believe in the Creator. I can't imagine that anyone in this Country would think "you don't believe in god so you don't have any rights" now would they?

    Lastly, regarding the Big Bang. Scientists know that was the genesis of the universe. But science does not profess to say what happened before that or where matter came from in the first place. Science is okay saying "we currently don't know" whereas many other people have a strong need to provide an explanation and the god of the gaps rationale fills that hole for them well. If people want to call the unknown "God" then fine and I could even do the same. And, full circle, there is my Creator - the unknown.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 8:50 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Brent Regan has been doing some homework! It's almost exactly the same with the Progressives, but the Progressives didn't totally eliminate Christianity, they just tweaked it's role.

     
  • Brent Regan posted at 8:12 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Brent Regan Posts: 740

    In the beginning there was nothing. Then, from an infinitely small, infinitely dense point in space, everything in the universe sprang into existence, and you are the eventual result.

    Atheists believe this is the Big Bang and happened for no particular reason.

    Judeo-Christian theists believe that Genesis was planned.

    You can’t prove either. It is a question of faith and so, in this country, Atheists are free to believe whatever they want. It is their God given right, protected by the Constitution.

    Like it or not, our legal and political systems are based on individual rights that are an endowment from the Creator. Some of those individual rights are loaned to the government to protect the balance. If you deny the existence of God, the source of your rights becomes other people. This is why Atheism is a fundamental requirement of Communism where the State (other people) has ultimate control of ALL your rights.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 8:05 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Why Not I think, in fact I know you are mistaken with your "looking for Jesus to escape the trials and tribulations of the personal h*ll they created?" I asked Jesus into my life when things were actually good, Friend. LOL, yeah.

    "They turn it around by overindulging in Jesus instead because it’s a socially acceptable release."-Actually, inmany instances it is not socially acceptable. In many cases it causes a rift between friends and family. Being a Christian is far being easy. Don't make the mistake of thinking Christians are happy because of their frame of mind. Often being a Christian causes you to endure more pain than before. I can testify to that.

    Eerose, I think your interpretation is wrong based on what Biblical scholars have said. Much of the Old Testament is instruction from God to the Isaraelites to avoid doing certain things in order establish themselves as God's people. Don't wear, or do this (because that is what the pagans do.) Don't do or wear this (because that is what the Sodomites did.) The New Testament set us free from teh Law. That is what Jesus was trying to get into the heads of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; you interpret that as the earth is flat? Ok. I interpret it as He created the earth, He makes the foundational rules of how it runs, not us.

    Ecclesiasties 1:5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
    and hurries back to where it rises. Do we not to this day say sun rise and sunset? That saying refers to the day to day worry people have despite everything else still goes on and one with or without them.

    Golden Mean, a man I used to be a friend with told me one day that he was posting as the Golden Mean. It was soon after we stopped speaking due to some things he said to me.

     
  • idanative55 posted at 6:26 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    idanative55 Posts: 34

    @earose

    The Ten Commandments are also in the Old Testament. Do you follow them or are they archaic also?

    As far as me thinking I can sway anyone speaking the Word, God forbid. I am just a messenger instructed to plant the seed. Someone else will come along to water that seed, and hopefully it is planted in good soil to grow. The scripture says he (God) has blinded the eyes of the scoffer. It is ultimately Yahvah who will open those eyes.

    The error-filled text you refer to has withstood the test of time. It is still the number one selling book in the world. Long after both you and I are gone The Word will still be here to educate, instruct, enlighten, and bring hope to a lost world.

     
  • Why Not posted at 5:37 am on Wed, Aug 1, 2012.

    Why Not Posts: 5326

    Doesn’t it seem that some like JTL go looking for Jesus to escape the trials and tribulations of the personal h*ll they created? It’s like the next drink, toke or whatever overindulgence or anti social lifestyle that has cost them a higher quality of life. They turn it around by overindulging in Jesus instead because it’s a socially acceptable release. Goodness gracious, overindulgence in anything is just unhealthy.

    Good for the Atheists. This is America and they can do as you please, but the money could have been better used helping your neighbors in need.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 10:38 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "... so why would you think they would be swayed by your quoting from ancient error-filled texts?"

    Because you just can't buy an umbrella suitable for frog rain?

     
  • budlight posted at 10:36 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    budlight Posts: 23

    I like the lord.....cant stand religion!!!!

     
  • Humanist posted at 8:47 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    But as a society, we do have to have some guidelines for people to follow otherwise other people might be hurt. Laws and the corresponding punishment for these individuals decisions are based on what that society has determined the common good. I think we would all agree that all-out anarchy would be a miserable failure.

     
  • earose posted at 8:01 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    earose Posts: 27

    @ idanative55
    @ jesusisthelight

    "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)

    Yes, that's from the Old Testament . . . the same book that states the earth is flat (Psalms 104:5) that the sun revolves around the earth, (Ecclesiastes 1:5), that human slavery is acceptable, (Leviticus 25:44-46 ) and that forbids wearing linen and wool together (Leviticus 19:19.) A book written when the height of technology was a wheelbarrow and before the discovery of whole continents.

    Non-theists (atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers) value reason and evidence over mythology/long-held supernatural beliefs, so why would you think they would be swayed by your quoting from ancient error-filled texts?

     
  • earose posted at 7:47 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    earose Posts: 27


    "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)

    Yes, that's from the Old Testament . . . the same book that states the earth is flat (Psalms 104:5) that the sun revolves around the earth, (Ecclesiastes 1:5), that human slavery is acceptable, (Leviticus 25:44-46 ) and that forbids wearing linen and wool together (Leviticus 19:19)

     
  • nebula posted at 6:55 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    By the way, thanks for taking the time to respond. Good to get some thought out answers in reply.

     
  • nebula posted at 6:44 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    So if this choice of "right and wrong" is merely just a personal preference... why punish someone based on their decision?

     
  • nebula posted at 6:36 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    I'm not sure if this is a deliberate misrepresentation or one made in genuine misunderstanding.

    But this is not true of CS Lewis, nor ALL theists, nor ALL those proclaim Christianity.

    Lewis himself was an atheist who [as an atheist] strongly believed in JUSTICE. It was his eventual recognition of the very idea that something can be JUST/UNJUST that changed his mind to a transcendent source of right and wrong. In order for one to know what it means to be UNJUST, one must know what it means to be JUST.

    The position you have misrepresented is more accurately this:

    That there is no FIXED FOUNDATION for a moral system apart from a transcendent source. All men in fact do have a sense of morality. And any man, regardless if he/she professes in a theistic worldview, can still choose to be good. All men were still created in the image of God. A moral code has been written on the hearts of ALL men. Regardless of their professed beliefs.

     
  • Humanist posted at 6:27 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote Nebula: "It explains nothing about an obligation to do what is right or wrong.

    If morality were a mere product of evolution, does that not imply it will change/evolve? "

    I think we must have gone one thread level too deep down there so I'll respond here. There is no obligation to do right or wrong. We do right because it benefits ourselves and our fellow humans. Or we do wrong because we're selfish. But it is a choice. (the religious have solved the fact that some people do evil by saying that god gave us free will, otherwise everyone be good if god made us that way).

    And, absolutely, morality will change and evolve. This moral relativism has always been exhibited in different societies since the dawn of man. Different societies and cultures often have different views on what are considered right and wrong.

     
  • searcher posted at 6:22 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    searcher Posts: 365

    "Why do you have to insist that there is something more supreme in order to feel complete"

    It seems that something more supreme gives them an escape - someone to blame if things go wrong, someone to beg forgiveness from when they misbehave or commit an unethical or immoral act. There is so much hate, abuse, discrimination and destruction that is perpretrated in the name of God or Jesus or Allah and many others. I think believing that there is some supreme being is a way of avoiding personal responsibility - after all, one can confess and be forgiven for anything.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 6:10 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "The U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals declared atheism a religion in a recent decision"

    Well, that's all the time we have today for "Oxymorons From Space"

    Tune in next week as we explore the seriously funny world of the "Jumbo Shrimp"

    And please remember not to forget, God is everywhere at once and nowhere to be seen so you better be sure to make your Lord's pre-selected free will decisions carefully...

     
  • searcher posted at 6:06 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    searcher Posts: 365

    It is interesting to me that sooner or later any believer vs. non-believer discussion gets down to morals and ethics. It seems that those who proclaim Christianity are absolutely of the mind that one cannot have a personal code of ethics or moral principles. That sort of judgemental attitude does not seem to be present in believers who are not associated with the dogma and doctrine of a man-made monotheistic religon. It is certainly not true of non-believers.

    Has anyone seen the PBS series called "The Question of God"? It is a theoretical debate between Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis based on a book by the same name written by a bloke named Nicolai. It's a fascinating study of the arguments in favor of and against contrasting world views.

     
  • Humanist posted at 6:00 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Nobody "fears" religious symbols on public spaces other than the possible fear of the religious right wanting to further entangle Christianity and government to the point of a theocracy (which is a very valid fear, btw). Rather, it's about the religious needing to play by the rules that our Fore Fathers established. And that means a separation of Church and State. (I obviously disagree with some of the lesson plan in the link you provided).

    Yes, I believe that I am the supreme being to myself and that you are the supreme being to yourself. Why do you have to insist that there is something more supreme in order to feel complete? We simply ARE the most advanced beings THAT WE KNOW OF. That's not arrogance, that's just a fact until shown otherwise.

     
  • nebula posted at 5:58 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    Ok, all the above does is give a possible explanation for feelings of empathy.

    It explains nothing about an obligation to do what is right or wrong.

    If morality were a mere product of evolution, does that not imply it will change/evolve?

    If so, it sounds as if the change is primarily influenced by survival value/self-interest. Survival value and self-interest for who?

    We may be approaching a time where the world is over populated and does not have the resources to sustain it. Now many will suffer and die. Who gets the shaft? Who draws the line? Who creates the new morality?

    The survival of the fittest?

     
  • haydenator posted at 5:39 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    haydenator Posts: 205

    If atheists do not fear religion then why are you so bent on having all religious symbols removed from public spaces? The constitution reads ", “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” It really states that there ought not be an official religion Does not the absence of a cross not promote your point of view or your religion?

    Much like the Scientologists Humanist seems to think of him/herself as the supreme being. To think how mankind can kill and slaughter and yet you can not fathom there might be someone, something, some being, smarter, or more evolved than us dumb humans? To think of us humans as the most advanced beings there are...arrogant at best and down right silly to be for sure.

    Since the removal of religion from the schools and it's erosion from society there is a direct correlation to violence and mayhem in this country. Crime, murder, kids being raised in single parent households have gone up, up up while religion has been simultaneously shoved into closets by the likes of atheists. Thanks for ruining our country. I hope all the self indulgence has been worth it.

    Here is a bit of good reading by a liberal organization like PBS even.
    http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/classroom/religious_liberty3.html

     
  • Ziggy posted at 5:31 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Ziggy Posts: 1294

    So who is coming out of the closet next? Vegetarians, Luddites, dachsund lovers, broccoli fans? A big yawn to the whole thing.

     
  • Humanist posted at 5:27 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Sorry, I thought I could detect the leading questions and where you were going with it so answered with what I thought you wanted to hear. Goodness is a result of eons of evolution and human social interaction. This sums it up better than I could.

    "This capacity likely evolved because it served our ancestors’ survival in two ways. First, like every mammal, we need to be sensitive to the needs of our offspring. Second, our species depends on cooperation, which means that we do better if we are surrounded by healthy, capable group mates. Taking care of them is just a matter of enlightened self-interest."

    http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_evolution_of_empathy/

     
  • Humanist posted at 5:09 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    God.

     
  • Humanist posted at 5:04 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "The Word says fear of the Lord is beginning of knowledge. Until we reverance (fear) him we wil never know him."

    Which is why we must start scaring the wits out of children starting at a young age with stories of "believe or burn in he!!" Scary stuff from a man-made, organized religion perspective, in my opinion.

    For Atheists, it should be clear that we don't fear something that we don't believe in.

     
  • nebula posted at 4:49 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    So you are saying that one SHOULD or OUGHT follow the Golden rule?

    Yet another moral directive above the Golden Rule itself.

    Again... what is the basis for that should/ought?

     
  • idanative55 posted at 4:39 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    idanative55 Posts: 34

    One point has been missed throughout this discussion. Yeshua the Christ said it himself when He said ( I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and henceforth ye know him and have seen him.

    Until you know and accept Christ for whom he is you will never know God or accept him. This has come about because of one thing, the rejection of knowledge. Hosea 5:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee and thou shall be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God ( and this is the scary part) i will also forget thy children.

    And what is knowledge. The Word says fear of the Lord is beginning of knowledge. Until we reverance (fear) him we wil never know him.

     
  • Humanist posted at 4:33 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Ultimately, it's The Golden Rule. Pretty simple, really. And no god required.

     
  • inclined posted at 4:25 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    inclined Posts: 681

    "The 65-year-old is participating in a Freedom From Religion Foundation campaign, in which seven billboards in the Spokane area feature the photos and testimonials of local agnostics and atheists."
    This woman, and others like herself, might as well be for Freedom From Womanhood campaign, and being a woman. Sharp/dull.

    The U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals declared atheism a religion in a recent decision. What the Seventh Circuit decided does not deal with the implication that man, himself, is taking seat of supreme being. The Court also made reference to the Supreme Court's opinion that a religion is distinct from a "way of life", even if that way of life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns. Obviously, this begs the question, if man is center, in his every appeal of consciousness, to being the center of the universe, does that not preclude “way of life”? Not every belief or belief system is a religion. Ex. If you are one to hold the earth is flat, it is not a system of belief that is a religion, or necessarily so.

    The legal definition of religion, with regard to the First Amendment, may be very different from the layperson's definition. The First Amendment, in order to be effective in protecting all beliefs must guarantee the freedom to hold “no religious belief.” In getting their knickers in a bind, they try their best to qualify what is too obvious. Without venturing too far into the realms of the philosophical, when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of “ultimate concern" that for him/her occupy a place parallel to that filled by . . . God in the Judea-Christian tradition--those beliefs represent a religion. If you, in essence, are taking the position of “divinity” by the defining no God or gods, then your atheism is indeed a form of religion, whether you agree or not, at least under law.

    The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions. Supreme Court decision (Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985)), where the court said: "At one time it was thought that this right [referring to the right to choose one’s own creed] merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." While theism includes Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Hinduism etc., Atheism, it is commonly thought, doesn't necessarily have subcategories, though many Buddhists and Secular Humanists(religion) are, generally, atheists. But, you supply the facts. There are many categories in this religion, just as one writer cynically said, there are Baptist atheist.

    It would seem they should make haste slowly to rethink their ex cathedra, at least their marketing.

     
  • nebula posted at 4:18 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    I think everyone has morals, a conscience, and knows right from wrong.

    I simply asked: what is the determining factor?

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 4:11 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "Now tell me the truth....Bradsher?"

    About what? And what is this Bradsher stuff, is the part of the born again process... everybody gets a new nick name?

    If it is, I would like a say in what my new nick name is. Bradsher sounds like a cat's name, I was thinking about changing my name to Poster X and using Racer X (from Speed Racer) as my avatar. Check with "The Light" and get back to me if we're good to go.

     
  • chouli posted at 4:09 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    chouli Posts: 1294

    JITL: "I made a choice to look for God and to accept Jesus as my Savior and things started turning around...it's all about choice"
    It's not your accepting god that has changed your life. You said it when you said "it's about choice"...It's changing your attitude that has changed your life.

    Another good deed from saint chouli...

    Nebula: do you think that only the religous folks have morals or a conscience or know right from wrong??

     
  • nebula posted at 3:54 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    nebula Posts: 29

    @Humanist

    You say:

    - "there is [NOTHING WRONG] with the path of Atheism if they so choose it."

    - "good for our local Atheists for having the guts to stand up for what they think [IS RIGHT]"

    and posts a quote he agrees with:

    - "[You SHOULD] live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it"

    Obviously by what you wrote you believe in some objective right and wrong and code of morality/ethic.

    Attempting to use reason and logic, my question is:

    What is the determining factor whether something is right or wrong?
    Or whether anyone SHOULD or OUGHT to do anything?

     
  • inclined posted at 3:16 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    inclined Posts: 681

    FG. " Sharon Mease is apparently a "baptist" atheist....fully understandable under the circumstances."

    Behind this, a profound meaning. Regrettably, the church, for centuries, and regrettably true of the Jews as well, has gotten it wrong in a laser focused matter of just a few things that tipped the world off axis.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:59 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    .we wouldn't just believe anymore, we would know for sure, why is that so far out of the realm of possibility?

    God wants faith, 2sence. Faith is part of the deal. Of course everyone would bow down to God if He came out and was lke "Waaaazzzz up! I'm God and I'm coming for you alllllllll." Is that love for Him or is taht fear? God wants love and faith and those thing are a choice you make, 2sence. I made a choice to look for God and to accept JEsus as my Savior and things started turning around...it's all about choice.

    And Heaven doesn't promise "stuff." The reference to "many rooms in my father's mansion" is just a play on words. You will nothing in Heaven but a relationship with God and peace. And if anyone tells you that becoming a Christian means you get rich and have lots of stuff they are lying...LOL. Its not about stuff or money.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:54 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    My2Sence, look at what Mohammed got from the time he started Islam. He got wealth, he got fame, he got many, many women, and he got power.

    Let's look at Joseph Smith....money, women, power, fame.

    Lets look at Jesus Christ, celebacy, cold, hunger, death threats, public humiliation, mockery, and he had no money.

    Hmmmmm, who was in it for the right reasons?

    Jesus told us that the enemy would come against the True Word of God. Christianity is constantly under attack. Islam? Not so much. LDS? Not so much. Buddhism? No Hinduism? No

    Mohammed said kill all non believers. Does that sound like love?

    Jesus said Love eachother, love everyone as I have loved you so that people may see what God has done for you and they have a chance to know My Father.

    Which sounds more spiritual?

    Do Muslims give charity? Do Muslims have missions where they teach people how to dig wells, and grow food, and help others?

    Do you know where the Muslim "Peace be upon you" greeting came from? Jesus Christ is where.

    GM that was funny. And yes, for the most part, I am at peace. Now tell me the truth....Bradsher?

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:32 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Humanist do you feel like I'm coming after you? I don't mean to make you feel that way. I'm sorry if I did.

    I can tell you guys this. I attend what they call an evengelical church and I feel I was lead to go there. They focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the mostly the New Testament. We don't worship "Saints" we don't follow this guy or that guy unless it's Jesus Christ or one of His apostles speaking for Him based on waht Jesus taught them. THere is no hatred in the Christian heart. I don't like Bible thumpers any more than you do. I like Bible teachers. I like Bible disussers. I couldn't sit through a He11 Fire Brimstone service because frankly, that isn't what God is about and it makes me sad that men do that to Him. We don't talk about going to war with this country or that, in fact we talk about how JEsus would be telling us not to, and we don't organize political campaigns. We don't bash Obama and we don't compare guns.


    I'm just happy, people. I'm full of love and when you feel that way you want to share and number one we're told to share.

    Anyway, love you guys.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 2:24 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667


    My answers to Mahuin.
    [*] Why atheists would strike anyone as threatening or scary.-Ummmmm I don't know either.

    [*] Why it is primarily Christians, and not other denominations, who seem to feel so deeply offended and threatened by the mere existence of atheists.-Because Athiests seem to go after Christianity and not Islam or other religions. Additionally, Jesus told us that we would be attacked and it's kind of freaky. When you give in to God, things really fall in line and make much more sense. So it's just kind of weird when people don't understand. I get it though. It's the same for you guys. I was the same way.


    [*] Why Christians, in particular, need everyone to share their belief system.-Jesus said, go forth and make disciples of all the nations. We were literally taught to share the Gospel. When God tells you to do something, do you argue? I mean it was Jesus' first and last commandment. "Come with me and I will make you fishers of men." "Go forth and make disciples of all the nations."

    [*] Why anyone would think that citing a piece of "scripture", the validity of which is not accepted by atheists, is somehow going to convince the atheist to "change his ways"?-I 100% agree when the scripture isn't given in context. That is why I go with Jesus' teaching. You quote scripture to someone who doesn't believe scripture. I go with the C.S. Lewis approach too.

    [*[ Why theists believe that the things that they have achieved through their belief in "God" could only be achieved by believing in "God", when there is ample evidence to the contrary?--We are all born with certain gifts. They are given to us by God. All you have, whether you believe or not is given to you by God. So you can believe or not, God still gave you life and your abilities. So all yo uhave is through Him.

    [*] Why anyone would believe that his religion is owed any more respect or deference than someone else's lack of religion?-I can only tell you my experience, Mahiun. I am a changed man. The level of love and peace I feel is amazing. That came from Jesus. It comes from Jesus. I am a different man. It all comes from God.

    Humanist, maybe you didn't see the portion of my text where I wrote "that man is gone." Literally, he is gone.

    And as far as your fundamentalist portion the only fundamentals of Christianity are Love God above all things and love eachother, accept JEsus Christ as your Savior, profess Him as the Son of God and as God, and admit you are sinner. THAT's the fundamentals, Baby. Now does that mean I can do all that and go kill and beat people up and steal and plunder? Absolutely not. Because if you love God, you love people and you respect them.

    I tell you I am a new person. There is one face and that is a face of a Christian man.


     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 2:17 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "I earned nothing. I was given all"

    Faux News says that's what President Obama was trying to tell you.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 2:16 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "I used to go by Nicotinegun here. That man is gone"

    Well, if you happen to see that man again, tell him that I said "Hi" and I hope that he has found sustainable peace.

     
  • My2sence posted at 2:06 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    My2sence Posts: 317

    Muslims are taught there is only one god too, who's right? that's gonna be an interesting day. I believe I read somewhere in the bible it says we should not be materialistic, isn't it interesting that all religions promise some sort of valuabe possesion after we die, mansions, palaces, 60 virgins, gold and other precious jewels,? why?
    Why are we to just "believe" why can't we "know" ...I mean if every person on earth was able to "see, feel, hear" god....we wouldn't just believe anymore, we would know for sure, why is that so far out of the realm of possibility? will there be an overcrowding issue if EVERYONE goes to heaven? that would really dissapoint the devil, what with no-one to burn eternally & all

     
  • yourneighbor posted at 2:05 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    yourneighbor Posts: 224

    All Good of course......

     
  • Humanist posted at 2:04 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    But there seems to be multiple faces of JesisIsTheLight (Nicotinegun): 1. A self-professed atheist, 2. An in-your-face, arrogant, antagonistic, right-wing, Christian Fundamentalist, and 3. A humble servant of god.

    Would the real Nicotinegun please stand up?

     
  • Humanist posted at 2:00 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    But why would you be dissatisfied? Are you dissatisfied that EVERYONE is probably wrong?

    There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" about existence. After-all, that's what science says about it.

     
  • Humanist posted at 1:59 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    And do you mean that in a good or a bad way? :)

     
  • Humanist posted at 1:58 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote: "I used to go by Nicotinegun here."

    Ah, this makes more sense (or not) now.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 1:49 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    by the way 3Gen, I have absolutely nothing to be arrogant about, Friend. As Paul told the Romans, you have done nothing to be arrogant about. you are forgiven by the mere Grace of God. Without His gift, you would fall short.

    All I have and all I am is because of what God gave me. What do I have to claim in that? I earned nothing. I was given all.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 1:46 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Humanist I posted that because you said "It wouldn't be a thread about Atheism without the obligatory fundamentalist citing Psalm 53:1.
    The way I see that particular verse, as man wrote it in the bible, is as a tool to manipulate those who had doubts. It only serves to drive a wedge between the believers and non-believers. So I posted Romans 1:18-20 as an alternative.

    Either verse, God has made his existance obvious to you. Nevermind...it wasn't an attack. It you focused on Psalm 53:1 as if it was the only verse that spoke of non-belivers.

    I don't know why you feel attacked, or if you feel attacked but if you do, I am sorry. Me sharing the Gospel is the equivalent of me telling you to stop going down the dead end road that ends in a sharp turn and a cliff. It's the equivalent of me saying "Hey buddy, don't drink that it's poisonous."

    It breaks my heart that men have done such damage to Jesus Christ. Organize religion have stepped away from the Word and twisted His meanings and focused on power and wealth. Jesus never intended that. I in no way think that I am better than you or that I deserve anything more than you. As i said the before the difference is I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, I agknowledge Him as my Savior and as the only begotten Son of God and through Him I am forgiven. It has nothing to do with I'm better than you, or I'm holier than you. That is the work of the devil and of man's love of power. Jesus works in me and I tell you the truth when I say that means my love for you makes me speak to you of Jesus Christ.

    I used to go by Nicotinegun here. That man is gone.

     
  • Mahiun posted at 1:34 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Mahiun Posts: 5640

    What I still don't understand is why it matters to anyone, one way or the other....

    Well, no, let me walk that back. That's not the only thing I don't understand. I don't understand:
    [*] Why atheists would strike anyone as threatening or scary.
    [*] Why it is primarily Christians, and not other denominations, who seem to feel so deeply offended and threatened by the mere existence of atheists.
    [*] Why Christians, in particular, need everyone to share their belief system.
    [*] Why anyone would think that citing a piece of "scripture", the validity of which is not accepted by atheists, is somehow going to convince the atheist to "change his ways"?
    [*[ Why theists believe that the things that they have achieved through their belief in "God" could only be achieved by believing in "God", when there is ample evidence to the contrary?
    [*] Why anyone would believe that his religion is owed any more respect or deference than someone else's lack of religion?

     
  • yourneighbor posted at 1:24 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    yourneighbor Posts: 224

    Humanist What I would give to meet you in person.........

     
  • Mark on the Park posted at 1:23 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Mark on the Park Posts: 471

    "Ayn Rand was an atheist."

    Winner, winner, chicken dinner - and I'm a theist.

    Science is predicated on causality, or the law of cause and effect. Nothing exists that was not caused, not even a void. Were I an atheist, i would be dissatisfied that I could not explain my existence.

     
  • Humanist posted at 1:20 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    You're right, I'm not understanding you correctly. I do not understand the point of you saying:

    "Humanist do you prefer Romans 1:18-20? "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." "

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 1:06 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Humanist you have me wrong, friend. You are not wicked because you are an athiest. I did not say that. There is no difference between you and I but for I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. We are all born sinners. We are sinners, plain and simple. I fight my demons every day. Make no mistake about that. They are tricky little buggers.

    My mentioning of my former atheism is a testament to the power of Jesus Christ. I am telling you the truth when I say the moment I gave credence to the possibility of God, He crept in and pulled me to Him through Jesus Christ. It was no longer a choice to believe. It was a feeling and a knowing. It's like when you think you are alone, but somehow you realize you aren't because something gives the other person away, but you still can't see them you know they are there.....does that make sense?

    Picture yourself in a dark room. The lights were on, but now they are off. When the lights went off, you saw no one in the room. So you are sitting there, listening, wondering, thinking you are alone and you begin to get very cold as time passes, and you begin to feel sad and alone. Then you hear someone in the room. You wait, you listen, but you hear nothing else. And then suddenly, someone puts a warm blankent around you and kindly rubs you on the back. You wait and listen, but nothing more but you know someone is in the room with you. That is how it was. I knew God was in the room with me.

    DTSinidaho, I agree. Religion is bad. Relgion killed Jesus Christ. LOL Jesus hated religion too. He engaged in debate with the Pharisees and Sadducees every chance he could. They spoke of religion and Jesus spoke of having a relationship with God. The Religious people spoke of laws and of ceremonies, while Jesus spoke of love, kindness, and opening up to God.

    3GenNative, I'm not sure how I lost you with the word "saved' but I will elaborate for you. If it were not for what I learned through Bible about Jesus Christ I would be divorced right now. It is through the lessons of Jesus Christ that I am a changed man. Through Jesus, I am filled now with the Holy Spirit and THAT is how my marriage was saved. God did that. I didn't. God saved me. I didn't. If it were not for my faith in God and the strength that He gave me, I would have left my wife out of cowardess.

    Until you have experienced it, I cannot fully explain. I am telling you the truth when I say if you seek God He will speak to you one way or the other. I promise you that.

    I love you all and I pray for you.

     
  • Humanist posted at 12:40 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    I'm not sure why you think that your claim as a "former Atheist" adds any credence to your current beliefs, but whatever. I am glad that you, personally, found way to beat your alcoholism and to hold your marriage together. Good for you. But you know what? YOU did that. You, YOURSELF. Give yourself more credit for the strength that you had to personally have in order to overcome your personal demons.

    Your quoting another bible verse has absolutely zero bearing to me and many, many people. We think that the bible is the word of man and that man created god in his own image. We do not think that the bible is "the truth". So, you're going to have to use some other line of reasoning in order to "prove" that you're right about the wickedness of Atheists.

     
  • dtsinidaho posted at 12:35 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    dtsinidaho Posts: 251

    Whether you believe in a Diety or not, is really NOT the issue. Religion is. It is the organization of mere mortals that then select a specific mortal to explain to them what a supernatural being is thinking and wants. And that by listening to this mortal, and doing whatever he/she says will automatically put you into a mystical place called Heaven. Oh yea, and anyone else that does not believe in EVERYTHING this mortal says will not be allowed to enter.

    You want the Athiests, who are mainly science and logic oriented to believe THAT?

     
  • Soul Man posted at 12:33 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Soul Man Posts: 1

    To the Atheists and Agnostics I say "Amen" ... to the believers I say "Praise Allah"

     
  • dtsinidaho posted at 12:24 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    dtsinidaho Posts: 251

    So Only those who believe in ONE religions/cults dogma can make it to a place called Heaven?

     
  • 3GenNative posted at 12:23 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    3GenNative Posts: 202

    @ humanist, Right on - A-OK. @ jesusisthelight, you lost me and many others with reference to 'saved' and 'soulless' animals. We are animal, but 'if' we (animals) have souls, ours (man) came with an abundance of arrogance. I can discern you got more than your share.

     
  • dtsinidaho posted at 12:18 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    dtsinidaho Posts: 251

    Who are you trying to write to Max? Are you trying to reach someone with a liberal bent to try to be swayed over to your ideas?

    I starting reading your comment, and then you used the flame word Libtards.... I am assuming this is the way an uneducated person would think is the best way to reach an audience. But as soon as I saw that word, I immediately stopped reading..and I am sure most people of reason would. To bad you have lower yourself to 4th or 5th grade school yard arguing tactics.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 12:17 pm on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Humanist do you prefer Romans 1:18-20? "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


    Humanist, while men physically picked up the pen, dipped it into the ink, and "wrote" the Bible, their hands were driven by God's Word. Look at it as taking down dictation. The bible is the Word of God. I can attest to it. I am living it.

    Through Jesus Christ I beat alcoholism. Through Jesus Christ my marriage was saved. Through Jesus Christ I became a caring, kind, man who took control of my family and of my children.

    As a former athiest I must tell you: in order to really feel the presence of Jesus Christ Our Lord in your heart you must seek Him and invite Him into your heart. You must seek Him and read His Words. You must seek and ask and read and study and you will begin to love Him. He will change you.


     
  • max power posted at 11:49 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    max power Posts: 559

    *** Science Reports Good News And Bad News About Meaning Of Life ***

    Weeks after Anderson Cooper came out of the closet and announced that he rides "side-saddle", area atheists have decided to come out of their closets too.

    Are you a spiritual seeker? Tens of millions of Americans reportly are. For instance, for his whole life, Josh Wadewater of New York City has been trying to find love. Stepanie Rainwater of San Francisco wants to find the meaning of life. For Leigh Firewater of Tulsa, the quest is more personal; Leigh is trying to find herself. Vivian Clearwater of Tucson is trying to find God, while millions of Democrat Libtards are just trying to find/get a clue, and so it goes.

    For all of these, and other spiritual seekers, science has some good news, and some bad news. The good news: Through the use of quantum mechanics, magnetic resonance testing, the Higgs Boson Collider and statistical calculations, it's been determined that "ALL" of these things including joy, peace, hope, love, fullfillment, self awareness, God's existence, that one key to unlocking life's eternal mysteries, your lost car keys, that missing Capone's pizza coupon that's about to expire, and even that missing "old school" knee high white sock -- are all located in the same place. In other words, you find one, you find them all!

    The not so good news: Scientists are no closer to determining that location than they were before the dawn of civilization. But rest assured, they're not going to stop trying -- And neither should you...

     
  • Mahiun posted at 11:48 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Mahiun Posts: 5640

    Then again, atheists are ALWAYS liberals.
    Ayn Rand was an atheist.

     
  • The Golden Mean posted at 11:35 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    The Golden Mean Posts: 4213

    "Adam brought us sin by eating the fruit"

    The root of all of our troubles... A naked girl, an apple and a talking snake.

    I doubt that you could get away with that one if it happened today.

     
  • Humanist posted at 11:20 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    I'm happy that you have found peace for yourself via the bible. Others have found peace without the bible and these ads let people know that there is nothing wrong with the path of Atheism if they so choose it.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 11:19 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    Idanative55 I completely agree with you. I pray for all the lost souls. I pray that our nation returns to God so that the United States once again becomes a shining light for God across the globe. We must pray for these people and as Paul instructed we must show them what it is to be Christians.

    Love them. Show them. Share with them the love that Jesus taught us. Obey the law. Obey the authorities. Give till it hurts and be glad to do so.

    I know what it is to feel as they do. I wasn't saved until I was 35, and even then I wasn't really active in the church or reading the Bible much. It wasn't until I really started seeking out God that I changed. I try to stress that to people. God isn't just going to come and fill you up with the Holy Spirit. You must seek Him and He will find you.

     
  • Humanist posted at 11:15 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    It wouldn't be a thread about Atheism without the obligatory fundamentalist citing Psalm 53:1. :)

    The way I see that particular verse, as man wrote it in the bible, is as a tool to manipulate those who had doubts. It only serves to drive a wedge between the believers and non-believers.

     
  • idanative55 posted at 10:59 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    idanative55 Posts: 34

    Psalm 53:1 ( The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:)

    It seems in today's society that one has to (come out) to be recognized. This type of recognition only shows your ignorance to who created you. America has turned its back on God. God have mercy on your soul.

     
  • Close Enough posted at 10:50 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Close Enough Posts: 134

    Hmmm... well considering I'm know zilch about quantum mechanics I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. Or, for that matter, what you're betting on.

    I thought the point of the cat = theoretical case of being in two states simultaneously. I.e. the cat is both dead and alive. Are you suggesting that perhaps theists/atheists are both correct? Man is created by God (believers) and God is the creation of man (atheists)?

    Perhaps you're betting that everyone is wrong? I'd take that bet.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 10:48 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    @My2Sence again,

    Evil is a reality yes. Pain is a reality, yes. Adam brought us sin by eating the fruit. Adam made the choice to disobey God. He brought death unto the world through his sin. He brought growning onto the earth wich made it hard and abrasive. However, Jesus Christ brought us a pathway to Heaven by fufilling the Law and by dying on the cross.

    God doesn't grade on a curve. He doesn't give you a ticket to Heaven due to your obeying "The Law" or by your deeds. Our deeds will all fall short. Not one of us is righteous. Only through the grace of God do we go to Heaven.

    Why didn't God make us perfect? God wanted us to be genuinely loving. He didn't want robots. True love is a choice. Without choice, there is no true love.

    Our suffering and our bad choices came with the original sin. It all started there, but it all ends with Jesus Christ.

    The Bible is much too complicated to be written by simple men. The Bible is much to comforting to be false. The Bible answers too many questions to be authored by mere men. The Bible is a living book. It will guide you and it will show you the Truth.

    Never in my life, through reading history, classic literature, or self help books have I felt so at peace than when I read, study, and contimplate the Bible.

     
  • Humanist posted at 10:06 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote "speaking to your children about God is something we are commanded to do"

    Or, another possibility, you believe you are commanded to do. We all need to remember that there are no Christian children, only children of Christians. Likewise for Atheists. Young children do not have the cognitive ability to understand what faith is even remotely about and teaching kids about god is nothing but indoctrination at that age and a disservice to their own personal development and growth. Instead, we can teach them about all of the various religions and beliefs out there and let them figure things out on their own as the develop into young adults.

     
  • Close Enough posted at 9:59 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Close Enough Posts: 134

    Exactly, your point actually highlights my own.The general basis for the atheist position in this article seems to rest on reason. However, I think we can agree that reason alone cannot prove nor disprove the existence or nature of God.

    Disclosure: I'm more of a Sola Fida kind of guy. While appreciate the role logic/reason can play in one's faith it is not the pinnacle foundation of my worldview.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 9:57 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him."


    You will never "earn" your way to Heaven. You get into Heaven by the mere Grace of God, through Jesus Christ.

    You can give and give and give until it hurts but without Jesus Christ you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, my friend.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 9:55 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    sorry the bible man 44 at yahoo dot com.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 9:52 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    @My2Sence,
    speaking to your children about God is something we are commanded to do. Jesus' first and last commandment was to make disciples. Our children are to be disciples of Jesus Christ. There is nothing wrong with that.

    As far as discussing Allah, what is wrong with telling your child Allah is a false god made up my a man who used his success to kill and gain riches? He claimed to be a prophet of god but he did nothing but use his success for his gain. Mohammed was about to kill himself on a mountaintop before he got his little "visitation."

    Jesus never would have told a child to sit down and shut up. He would have spoken to the child and given them insight.

    You said ". I know I'm not an expert on this subject, and I know people are going to tell me where I can go to obtain this valuable knowledge, I still have "faith" but when someone wants to have a battle of religion wits, I loose every time." Then get to reading, Brother. Get to listening to sermons. Get a Bible study guide. John McCarthur is brilliant on the subject. Pastor Greg Laurie is brilliant on the subject. Look them up and listen to their sermons. Read, read, read. The Bible will answer your questions.

    Truth be told, I was an athiest for many years. I prided myself on "battling Christians." I had questions that no one could answer and to be honest I think I even talked Christians out of Christianity at times. Here I am now about to earn my M.A. in Divinty with a concentration in Pastoral Services. I can tell you from experience the more you seek God the more He tells you He is there. I promise you.

    Why does God allow bad things to happen? I think He could ask us why do we allow bad things to happen. God never promised a perfect life. In fact He told us not to focus on this life but on the next. As I explained to my daughter God is preparing the perfect place for us. But before we can go we must learn how to act when we are there. He doesn't want us to be of this world. So this life is a preparation for the next. Bad things happen, but that doesn't negate God. It is during those times when He is closest to us.


    Do you discipline your children, My2sence? Do you allow something bad to happen to them if they stray from what they are told is right?

    As far as Humanist's theory of being judged on merits that is completely false as pointed out in Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16-18, and others.

    Anyone who attempts to earn they way to Heaven will fall short. You don't have it in you to earn your way to Heaven without Jesus Christ as said by Jesus Christ "there is no way to Father but through Me."

    You can not dispute the Bible until you know the Bible.

    the bible man 44 at yahoo.com....sorry I wrote . co m below.

    If you care to discus write me line at the bible man 44 at yahoo dot com. No spaces.

     
  • Humanist posted at 9:03 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    I, personally, prefer the Atheists Wager. It just makes more sense to me. Although it is still a false dilemna logical fallacy just as Pascal's Wager is.

    "You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist%27s_Wager

     
  • Old Hayden posted at 9:01 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Old Hayden Posts: 33

    I'm betting on Schrödinger. I don't know if the cat is alive or dead. (Google Schrödinger's cat.) I don't know if there is a god or not and neither does anyone commenting. Those who are personal theists have been taught there is a god and those who are atheists reject such indoctrination and seek their own answers. In other words, theists believe Schrödinger's cat is alive or can become alive again and atheists believe at some point the cat is dead...a fact.

     
  • Humanist posted at 8:54 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    If I had a dime for every time I've heard similar statements......... You need to understand that this is not about people needing "soften their hearts", "forgiving and forgetting". Atheists generally base their lack of belief on the results of their logical and critical thinking.

    I strongly recommend that you read the book "Good Without God" by Greg Epstein, the Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University. It may enlighten you. http://www.amazon.com/Good-Without-God-Billion-Nonreligious/dp/0061670111

     
  • Humanist posted at 8:49 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Quote JW: "atheists expend so much effort to try and disprove what they say does not exist"

    That's actually incorrect. We spend very little time trying to disprove something that does not exist since that is a logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on the believer - to show that what they believe in exists.

    As an Atheist, I have a huge amount of awe for the vastness of the universe, for the timelessness of time, for our natural wonders, for the things we have yet to discover, and so on. But there currently is no reason to believe that some deity created all things - and certainly not the version of that deity that so many man-made religions have imagined. If you want to call that a religion, then so be it.

     
  • My2sence posted at 8:47 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    My2sence Posts: 317

    Young kids of today are very smart, (and when I say "young kids" I mean ages 5 to 12 ish) when I was just a lad, I went to sunday school, church, Wednesday mass and every other function they could come up with that invloved passing the money plate around, I was told all the stories from the bible just like all the rest of you, not once did I ever question any of it, "ok, so this old decrepit man went and collected all the resources to build a giant cruise ship, by himself, then loaded the entire thing with....not people! ANIMALS! two of each kind? and they all got along without eating each other? All the people were left behind to die. Mmmmm merciful? Any way back to our young children of today, I have two of my own, and in todays world kids are taught to stand up, express yourselves, ask questions, do not sit there and be a bobble head, if there is something you don't understand raise the questions. When I was 8 I was told "it's called faith, and you will believe, sit down and shut up" so when my son asks me questions relating to the above example, I just have a hard time looking him directly in the eyes and trying to explain why our loving, forgiving, merciful creator would let so many people die. And this is just one of hundreds of questions they come up with, the latest one, "how many gods are there daddy"? "well son, there's just one"...... "who is allah"? ....."well son hes a different god......TIME FOR BED SON!!, LOVE YOU GOODNITE SEE YOU IN THE MORNING" "but dad, we haven't even had lunch yet". I know I'm not an expert on this subject, and I know people are going to tell me where I can go to obtain this valuable knowledge, I still have "faith" but when someone wants to have a battle of religion wits, I loose every time, I can't explain it away. I go to church (not very often) but occasionally, and I get the feeling of being a part of a cult, kinda weirds me out a little bit.

     
  • Humanist posted at 8:44 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Humanist Posts: 3221

    Kudos to The Press for this article and bringing some exposure to one of the fastest growing groups in America right now. Also, good for our local Atheists for having the guts to stand up for what they think is right and to the FFRF for continuing to bring attention to people like us and Separation of Church and State Issues. If anyone out there is doubting their religion, please know that there are other people like you - right here in your community.

     
  • Close Enough posted at 8:14 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Close Enough Posts: 134

    I'm betting on God (see Pascal's wager).

     
  • rexaroni posted at 8:13 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    rexaroni Posts: 190

    Using my father again as an example, he has never tried to prove or disprove anything. It is what he believes, and that is that. He strongly feels that personal spirituality or religion is something best kept to oneself. In that, he and I agree 100%. Have a nice day.

     
  • rexaroni posted at 8:10 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    rexaroni Posts: 190

    "Then again, atheists are ALWAYS liberals."

    Hey, Joe. Not entirely true. My father, a technical professional for his entire career, is about as conservative as one can get, and he is definitely an athiest. While he won't attach the label to himself, if you ask him about his religious beliefs and listen to his answers, you will label him an athiest.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 8:05 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    If you care to discuss you can write me at the bible man . com with no spaces. If I put my e mail as it is the Man will erase it for some reason. God bless.

     
  • JesusIsTheLight posted at 8:03 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JesusIsTheLight Posts: 667

    I truly feel bad for these people and I pray for them. To equate yourself to nothing more than a souless animal is truly sad.

    I pray that God sofents their hearts and allows them to forgive and forget and that they begin their relationship with Jesus Christ again.

    They say they are good without God, but they know not what they do. They are good according to whom? Who says they are good? Are they happy? Does that mean they are good? Charles Manson claimed to be good without God too.

    I can tell you from personal experience as a former atheist: the more you look for God the more He will show you.

    For any of you that are reading this and you have doubts about God I encourage you to read the New Testament and I encourage you to seek God.

    As far as references to proof of God, there are many proofs of Biblical truths. There are archeological findings that show proofs of the Bible.

    I pray for all of you that are lost. I truly love you all. God bless.

     
  • NoName posted at 7:23 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    NoName Posts: 253

    "Can't we all just get along?" Nope. You believe in God, good for you. You don't believe in God, good for you. Why take it out of the house? I liked the 70s when most people kept it to themselves.

     
  • Keven Johnson posted at 7:12 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Keven Johnson Posts: 1490

    Yes Joe, that's how I would describe someone who doesn't believe in an imaginary man in the sky, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, yet always needs our money! - - stupid liberals.

     
  • Old Gyrene posted at 7:08 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Old Gyrene Posts: 97

    "The aim is not to condescend but to enlighten, Mease said, to reveal there are ordinary, everyday folk in the area who are intentionally church-less and deserve equal treatment." - What? Now these people are going to want to claim they're a "protected class"? God gave us free will to think and do as we please. I pray he has mercy on these people's souls.

     
  • Jeffrey Wherley posted at 7:08 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Jeffrey Wherley Posts: 3969

    Lack not lake LOL

     
  • Jeffrey Wherley posted at 7:06 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Jeffrey Wherley Posts: 3969

    It never ceases to amaze me, that atheists expend so much effort to try and disprove what they say does not exist. They always point to science as their truth, but with every scientific "truth" found a dozen new questions are created. If "There's not one shred of scientific evidence that would show or prove there's a being that doesn't have to follow natural laws." is their faith then their god is Natural laws, or the creator of those laws which has determined man will never be able to know them all.

    Just another example that Atheism is not a lake of religion just a different one, in which they are clueless of their guiding force and Anger that other aren't oblivious, as they are.

     
  • Flash Gordon posted at 6:47 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    Flash Gordon Posts: 1680

    When someone claims to be an atheist I'm always somewhat curious to find out what kind. Sharon Mease is apparently a "baptist" atheist....fully understandable under the circumstances:)

     
  • concernedcitizen posted at 6:31 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    concernedcitizen Posts: 2530

    Joe,

    This is also another promotion showing the slanted direction of this ?News Source?

     
  • JoeIdaho posted at 6:16 am on Tue, Jul 31, 2012.

    JoeIdaho Posts: 2841

    I could care less about someone not believing in God.
    I do; however, see their intentional mocking of my God as insulting. there's no reason whatsoever that they should promote Godlessness. They get NOTHING from it excepting self promotion, and irritating others.
    Then again, atheists are ALWAYS liberals. They fit the mold of "stupid".

     
default avatar
Welcome to the site! Login or Signup below.
|
Not you?||
Logout|My Dashboard

Stocks