No smoke, no sale - Coeur d'Alene Press: Local News

No smoke, no sale

Cd'A officials may ban e-cigarette sales to minors

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Posted: Monday, August 8, 2011 12:00 am

COEUR d'ALENE - No puffing, kids, be it real or electronic.

The city of Coeur d'Alene is considering banning the sale of electronic cigarettes, or e-cigarettes, to minors, adding the nicotine-containing yet less hazardous type of smoking to the no-go list for those younger than 18.

Area anti-smoking advocates - including Natalie Forsyth, working on behalf of the American Lung Association of Idaho and STAND (Support Teens Against Nicotine Dependency) - approached the city about enforcing a ban in the spring.

The city's legal department, as asked by the City Council, studied the request, and found a similar rule in Spokane Valley.

Up for the General Services Committee to consider at noon today is whether the Lake City wants to adopt is own rule.

"What we got back is that this is kind of a growing thing," said Mike Gridley, city attorney on including rules about e-cigarettes and minors.

E-cigarettes were invented in 2003 and allow people to heat nicotine, herbs or other substances and ingest the active ingredients without actually burning the substance. Advocates call it an important, healthier step to quitting smoking. They are flavored, with four ingredients including nicotine - compared to 4,000 in real smokes.

The American Cancer Society Action Network, American Heart Association, American Lung Association and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids said recently that more needs to be studied before they can be called a safer alternative, or even a cessation step.

But some feel that banning it from minors would still send an important message to kids about smoking in general.

James Barbour, owner, of the Vapor Cafe on Government Way that sells the electronic product, said he'd support a ban on sales to minors. Most all of his clients are older anyway, he said, looking to quit smoking after years puffing.

"I have customers wheeling in with oxygen tanks on," he said. "Married guys with beards, people who have been smoking and want to quit. Those are my customers; kids don't really hang at the store at all."

The committee will make a recommendation to the City Council on the proposed rule.

World War IIaircraft at airport until Wednesday


Staff writer

HAYDEN - Imagine what it would be like to be piloting or sitting in the tail of a B-17 or B-25 during World War II, ready at a moment's notice to bomb the enemy somewhere on the Eastern Front in Germany or the Western Front in the Pacific.

For six days aviation enthusiasts - military history buffs and those looking for a new interest - have an opportunity to see the inside of a B-17 or B-25 at the Coeur d'Alene Airport-Pappy Boyington Field.

Individuals young and old alike spent Friday morning under partly sunny skies sharing smiles and flashing cameras to create memories that will last a lifetime.

Douglas Noga, of Newport, Wash., reflected on the need for speed while remembering his father with pride.

Norbert Noga served in the Navy and obtained his pilot's license, but never flew oversees in any of the war campaigns. Douglas said Norbert spent his career at home working as an engineer.

"Growing up he never really liked to talk about what was going on," Noga said. "He was humble as he just went about doing his job to keep aircraft in the air."

With both the B-17 and B-25 restored and in the air, history is waiting to be told. The B-25 took 28 years to be restored to regular flying conditions by 2009. The B-17 has been a regular attraction at events since 1985.

Visitors during this four-day event could tour the inside of the crafts or take a special 20-minute flight over Hayden and Lake Coeur d'Alene.

The event kicked off Thursday at noon and is brought to the Lake City by the nonprofit group the Commemorative Air Force Arizona Wing Aviation Museum, based in Mesa, Ariz.

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The crew members are volunteers, willing to share the history and answer any questions, but most of all, it can be seen in their eyes the passion for these aircraft and their history in military service.

The B-17 Flying Fortress, known as 'Sentimental Journey,' still has eight of these crafts flying around the world today. The B-17 crewed 10 members including the pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, navigator, bombardier, radio operator, ball turret gunner, two waist gunners and the tail gunner.

The B-25 Mitchell Bomber, given the name "Maid in the Shade," has experienced 18 missions in combat dating back to World War II. Named after Gen. Billy Mitchell, this twin-engine bomber was considered as one of the most versatile aircraft.

B-17 loadmaster Fred Bowman served 22 years in the Air Force and said he loves to tell tourists the story that these two aircraft are female as a way to ease any tension.

"They're females because they like to kiss you," Bowman said. "They have the tendency to kiss you on the arm, back, top of your head, wherever they can."

Of course, that means if you don't want to get smacked trying to enter the aircraft or move around once in flight, watch your step and be careful of what's around you.

Loadmasters, Bowman said, are responsible for watching the back ends of the aircraft for oil leaks, gas leaks, sputtering engines or fires and wing issues. He added once passengers are safely secured the loadmasters watch for those experiencing air sickness or other concerns.

Bowman said these tours have special meaning.

"The moments are unexplainable," Bowman said with tears in his eyes.

Bowman, originally from Pennsylvania, served in both campaigns across Europe and Japan.

"I lived on a small farm and after I finished high school I decided to join the air force," Bowman said. "When I had my family with me it was a big vacation, it was a great opportunity."

Tours of the B-17 and B-25 run through Wednesday. Tour hours are 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.

Proceeds go toward the regular maintenance and operation of the aircraft.

Bowman said keeping the show is important for future generations.

"For any of those interested in aircraft, come, it's history." Bowman said. "The worry I have is how long it will be allowed to continued."


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  • MattZuke posted at 8:25 pm on Wed, Aug 10, 2011.

    MattZuke Posts: 2

    Just to be clear. No e-cigs for minors? Absolutely. Same goes for NRPs too. Granted there's no evidence NRP use in adolescence leads to cigarette use, but IMHO the only people who have the moral authority of the growth and development of a child are the parents. I'd opt for a tobacco free solution, and if the parents decide NRPs are indicated, THEY CAN BUY THEM.

    Granted there is really no kid appeal to e-cigs. The target demographic is 30-50 y/o smoker who's tried to quit using NRPs a few times. But why take the chance. It's the parent's job to promote cigarette abstinence. They fail over 30% of the time. For those failures we need options on the market to address the number one cause of early death, which include NRPs and smokeless solutions like e-cigs. We don't teach kids to ride bikes without a helmet, and we don't let them grow up without a fallback position.

  • MattZuke posted at 8:13 pm on Wed, Aug 10, 2011.

    MattZuke Posts: 2

    "The aerosols produced by 'e' cigs are NOT ingested. They are inhaled and absorbed. There a huge difference between the two terms. "

    Okay sir

    "Also nicotine is just as addictive with an 'e' cig"

    O really? O really? DeNiles, you got any peer reviewed research backing up this statement? The whole reason we allow organizations to give NRPs to kids is the presumption that nicotine outside the standard delivery system, the cigarette, is less likely to promote addiction. All evidence to date "suggests" nicotine + natural MAO inhibitors in adolescence = life long addiction. I disagree with the practice, esp since the parents are not informed, and at least in the Austin study ~30% of kids using NRPs never smoked.

    So citation indicated in this case.

    "The very best light is that it may a lessor evil but still evil and still an unknown. "

    All evidence to date suggests it addresses cigarette addiction. All evidence to date suggests it's over 99% less harmful than burning tobacco leaves and inhaling them.

    The long term affects of nicotine outside burning tobacco leaves are not fully understood, but we've had NRPs on the market for over 20 years. Since NRPs have a success rate of only 2% over 20 months using them as prescribed, and evidence suggesting that their use beyond 12 weeks may promote cigarette cessation, it's about high time we actually research nicotine, don't ya think?

    But we do know the long term affects of smoking.
    ~1 in 3 kids try tobacco
    ~1 in 4 become habitual users
    ~1 in 7 continue use until they are dead

    And this is accepted as a great improvement. It's for those 1 in 7 kids that grow up to be adults, those who have tried NRPs and medications like Chantex that e-cigs represent a net win.

    "The manufacturers want your money by taking over your life with a substance they 100% know will chemically addict most of its users. Why would anyone intentionally become an addict to anything?"

    Again, started as kids, totally unaware how addictive it was. Studies suggests nicotine + tobacco's natural mao inhibitors = life long addiction in adolescence. The addiction is already there. The accepted treatment of cigarette addiction is with nicotine.

  • efromm posted at 12:01 pm on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    efromm Posts: 701

    Why allow life if your going to die?

  • DeNiles posted at 10:22 am on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    DeNiles Posts: 2450

    efromm.. I care that you are fully informed, that you make your tobacco use decisions with a better understanding of its risks. Surely you're not discounting being properly educated on this subject of pipe smoking? Trust me, all of those people whose pictures you should see felt just as you do now. It won't be me. I won't get cancer. And maybe if they were as accurately informed as I am trying to get you to be, they may have chosen to end tobacco use. So educate yourself and keep that knowledge forefront in your tobacco use habits. You seem like a wise person who would not want to risk your life on anything without a properly laid risk analysis. Do the homework now that you should have done BEFORE you allowed this drug into your lifestyle.

    As for dying there is something very wrong about anyone dying predictably from an easily preventible cause. Tobacco deaths are not accidents. They're just a normal expected outcome from the normal application of tobacco. Society does not allow industrial hazards to recklessly take lives so why should legal tobacco or any legal product be allowed to kill 1/2 million annually?

  • Jeffrey Wherley posted at 10:15 am on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    Jeffrey Wherley Posts: 3969


    Auto Manufactures create a product that when used as directed Kill way more than Tabasco. Lets outlaw use of Autos in public!! Tabasco manufactures have never "recommends that people drink (smoking) themselves to death" What communist handout did you get that BS from?

    There are benefits to nicotine like a 50% reduction in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease in smokers. Has been found effective in Tourette's disorder, has been proven to increase Cognitive processing, there are benefits to Nicotine and without the need of smoking a cigarette is an even better choice, if someone would want to make it.
    I know my mothers Epilepsy only came back after she stopped smoking, she had thought she had grown out of it, and was gone again when she started back up. Smoking on one hand, Epilepsy on the other, She Chose Smoking.
    Give people ALL the information truthfully without all the Fear-Mongering and let people have the freedom of choice. These E-cigs also come in non-nicotine and have been found to improve breathing in COPD and Asthma patients at much lower costs than RX medications.
    The Bigotry and lack of critical thinking when it comes to Tabasco is very fun to watch, as normally rational people become irrational.

  • efromm posted at 9:51 am on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    efromm Posts: 701

    DeNiles you must get something out of judging. You must feed off of it. For some reason your concerned about how I am going to die. Like I or anyone has the choice on how their life will end. Unless you kill yourself of course. So 1300 people will die today from smoking. How many die from alcohol abuse? Or car accidents? Or prescription drugs which are deemed safe by our very own government. People die every day. Every second of the day some one is leaving this Earth. A lot of them before their time. We have no guarantee on how much life we will get. I live the life and death I choose. Again thank you for judging me, and your concern. God Bless...

  • DeNiles posted at 8:59 am on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    DeNiles Posts: 2450

    Y'all still do not understand. Generally tobacco users make only one choice, one time. That single choice is the decision to start. Then their only choice is between brands of tobacco. Alcohol does not do that and it is the closest addictive comparison and it holds a very distant second place.

    1,300 Americans will die today for making that one choice. Can you name any other legal industry known to kill its customers when their products are used as recommended by the manufacturer? And you can skip alcohol because no libation manufacturer recommends that people drink themselves to death, none. Only the tobacco industry intentionally ensnares its customers with addiction and knowingly kills them with expected application of their products. The only other thing I can think of that kills anywhere near this pace when done as directed is armed combat. Such an unhealthy and insidious product demands serious regulation and more honestly needs to get regulated out of existence.

    efromm...,. Look up lip, tongue and cheek cancer. Print off some pictures and keep them openly displayed right alongside your pipe paraphernalia. They will factually counter balance its mystical pseudo-aura of sophistication and you can then consider yourself a duly informed consumer of tobacco. Enjoy.

  • Jeffrey Wherley posted at 6:48 am on Tue, Aug 9, 2011.

    Jeffrey Wherley Posts: 3969


    I also am against anti-smoking laws, and other laws that make choice a four letter word.

    I DO NOT SMOKE, and I really don't have a problem tolerating, people that chose to have a cigarette with a beer or after a greasy burger and fries. But I am a tolerant person. You just seem to be in DeNile that you are a Bigot (intolerant of others choices) and want to force your choices and opinions on others.

    If you don't want to be around smokers, don't go places that allow people the freedom to chose. But don't Pass laws to force your choices on others, that is giving up freedom for perceived security, and when you do that you deserve neither.

  • efromm posted at 10:05 pm on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    efromm Posts: 701

    First of all DeNiles thank you for assuming I am idiot.I do occasionally smoke pipe tobacco. And I am not addicted. And I have enjoyed my life. An awful lot actually. You know why? Cause I mind my own business. And you should too. You really should. Just think of all the time you would have not judging others. For some reason people like you think that your saving people from dying. What are you afraid of? No matter what you do your going to die of something. There is no guarantee on how long you will live. I am going to forgive your ignorance. Cause I think you really need forgiveness. So I forgive you for judging me and calling me and idiot. God bless you DeNiles....

  • gigglestick posted at 6:41 pm on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    gigglestick Posts: 7

    I love the smell of government intrusion in the morning! I love law enforcement hyped up on energy drinks. Good drug bad drug?

  • rationaldiscussionplz posted at 12:12 pm on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    rationaldiscussionplz Posts: 266

    Reputable electronic cigarette retailers already choose not to sell their product to minors. Even as an existing customer with Smart Smoke in Silver Lake Mall with all my information in their system, new employees or those filling in from another location who don't recognize me still card me to be certain I am the customer I say I am, not some kid trying to use an adult's account. They log every single sale to their customer accounts to ensure they know to whom their product is being sold. All reputable retailers have similar policies. Smart Smoke does what they can to avoid selling to non-smokers. They're not looking to addict anyone, merely to provide a healthier nicotine alternative to existing smokers. So a rule like this is unnecessary--it's already enforced at the private level, it doesn't need to be enforced at a government level. I understand that it feels good to "do something" but it really doesn't do anything except possibly take valuable time away from law enforcement's other duties. Such a rule in the city is merely a reactionary measure to make people feel good about doing something about a problem that doesn't really exist.

    Of course reputable retailers will support the rule, because it won't have an effect on their business one way or the other. They already enforce the rule all by themselves without it being mandated.

  • DeNiles posted at 7:13 am on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    DeNiles Posts: 2450

    efromm.... There will come a day in your future when you will kick your own backside for being foolish enough to let an industry trick you into being their addicted customer. Don't think you're an addict? Prove it to yourself. Quit, for one solid month, 30 straight days without a tobacco fix. There are some people who can pick up and sit down tobacco with ease but they are rare birds. I hope for your sake that you are one of them.

    And just so you know, I really do not care if idiots like you who are grateful addicts continue smoking. I care about our youth accepting what we now understand is a terrible addiction with horrific health consequences. Enjoy life while you still can.

  • efromm posted at 6:09 am on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    efromm Posts: 701

    Hmm it's so nice to have others worrying about me smoking. I really wish they would have spent more time worrying about their country. Maybe they should move on to fast food now. I see lots of over weight parents and children walking around. On one side they complain about cigs and on the other they enjoy the tax revenue they provide. I love how in America today people think they have the right to tell you anything. When really they should they should be worried about themselves.

  • DeNiles posted at 4:35 am on Mon, Aug 8, 2011.

    DeNiles Posts: 2450

    The aerosols produced by 'e' cigs are NOT ingested. They are inhaled and absorbed. There a huge difference between the two terms. Also nicotine is just as addictive with an 'e' cig. The very best light is that it may a lessor evil but still evil and still an unknown. The manufacturers want your money by taking over your life with a substance they 100% know will chemically addict most of its users. Why would anyone intentionally become an addict to anything?

    Things that get eaten are ingested. That is how our bodies are supposed to intake solids. The gut is designed to deal with them. Your lungs are meant for air. They balk with stuff other than air. They change when they get abused. They lose function when abused for a long time. Lose your lungs and you lose your life. Lose your gut and you go on hyperalimentation. Its no fun but you don't die.

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